It will be interesting to see what the feds stance will be on this, as mentioned above similar plans were rejected in WY.

They might as well sell wolf tags because there won't be any elk left due to the wolves.

Sometimes I feel like we are still in the Middle Ages. When people complain about wolves, whether about livestock, game animals or personal fear, I get frustrated. Who the Hell are we to decide that an animal should be removed from the ecosystem? We obviously have very little knowledge about the workings of the world. As humans we need to quit thinking we are the masters of this earth and realize we are simply a part of it. Why do we constantly harrass wolves? I am an avid hunter, but I would be a lot more excited to be able to witness a wolf pack making a kill(on an elk or deer, not cattle) than I would be at shooting an elk or deer. To me most of the problems are caused by fear. Fear that we are NOT the most powerful animal on the planet, fear that we are inadequate in regulating the natural world. But why should we feel we can regulate EVERYTHING. That doesn't mean we shouldn't attempt common sense, scientific management (not using fear mongering), it just means that we need to realize that there are so many variables that we can never truly regulate the ecosystems we are a part of.
I don't mean to pick on you ST, but statements like yours do nothing to improve the situation. It is obvious that the wolves will not kill all the elk. There is data that suggest the elk might need to re-learn how to deal with having the wolves back in their territiory. I have talked with a scientist that works in the Upper Peninsula of Michigan. He has seen evidence of wolves killing many whitetailed deer in one night(there are many factors invovled), but he said wolves were new to the area and the deer simply didn't have the skills to avoid the danger.
I think that is enough for me, my hands hurt from typing! Sorry it's so long, I needed to vent!

For thousands of years the elk, deer, bison, moose, grouse, quail ex, ex populations lived with many more wolves in their lives then will ever be again, if this was not the fact these animals would have gone to the wayside many years ago.
However times have change because of us humans .
So is there a place left for the wolves, lion, grizzly bear maybe, but I can’t find it in the lower 48 that’s the simple mater of things.
We can try to force people to live with them, force business to deal with them and may I say try to force them to live with us.
But
As you say we are all part of the mix of things, we have an impact on all those living around us just as did all other dominant species before us. I would submit to you that by reintroduction of wolves we are in fact trying to play god and support a species that we as competitors cannot have within our territories. That’s the simple way of it, competition of species.
While I to like to see them and do now and then,
they are not however in my back yard, not on my land, not on my ranch nor do I have to deal them regularly on a personal basis.

[ This Message was edited by: captchee on 2004-04-08 15:52 ]

While they are at it, lets reintroduce the dinosaur and saber tooth tiger too. That way we can all please all the want-to-be's in never-neverland on weekend getaways. Oh, I almost forgot, the native Americans on their native land with their traditional ways of living needs to be reintroduced too.
Come on!!! lets get real here!! If you were born 200 years late, that's your problem.

I almost forgot, the native Americans on their native land with their traditional ways of living needs to be reintroduced too.
Come on!!! lets get real here!! If you were born 200 years late, that's your problem.
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First off
WE " the native Americans" were give the chore of the re introduction of wolves.
However the wolf’s numbers didn’t rise to what OTHERS wanted to see so it was turned over to FFW and taken from our hands.
See we understood that numbers could not be supported in today’s world.

I can very well point out that European populist in this country is no different then the wolf reintroduction run amuck
Now I am a Native American and while I think your remark was off hand lets not make this into a racial issue :(

Can you explain to me how that has anything what-so-ever to do with wolf reintroduction? Let's try and keep things in the current context of time. We did not have a bounty on all the dinosaurs and saber toothed tigers that lived here(I hope you don't think we actually lived with the dinosaurs!). We did not kill dino and the tiger by the thousands simply because we thought they were evil, but that is exactly what we did to the wolf. I'm not saying we need to have wolves in every part of their former range, but there is no reason to believe we can't live with them. We here in Northeastern MN have way more wolves than you guys have and they cause little, if any, problems. Granted, we don't have a large ranching industry, but we do have people, deer(a large, healthy population), pets, and some minor livestock owners. While there are occasional run-ins with pets and livestock, we seem to get along fine. I'm not going to tell you that there aren't some here who feel much like you, but the vast majority have realized having them is much better than not having them. The fact that they have always been here, rather than being re-introduced helps immensely.
As far as competition of species goes, it is pretty hard to compare us with other wolf competitors. If we wouldn't have removed them from the areas with our modern technology and sheer numbers, they would still be around in some places and we wouldn't have to reintroduce them.
I also submit that when the wolf gets removed from the list and true management can occur by the states we will see a lot less problems. The "competition" you speak of will create more of a balance, and I use the term balance loosely, since there is never a true balance, just a constant dynamic interaction.

I'm not trying to put any down but this is simply hysteria not supported by fact. The fact is elk were doing fine in the west until settlers came here. But guess what there were wolves here then too. So who should the elk be more afraid of, man or wolf?

In Idaho right now there are 400 wolves. Anybody know Idahos elk population right now? I'm guessing its at least 100,000. Wolves are only going to kill what they consume. Common sense begs the question, can 400 wolves consume enough elk to really make a dent when the base population is 100,000? The simple answer is no. Maybe in certain areas yes but not overall. And thats if elk were the wolves only prey which they are not. You may see some population flucuations until the ecosystem balances out but no poulation of any species is going to even come near being wiped out as long as management plans are put in place within the next 5 years.

If that doesn't convince you thats ok, do the research. Read articles that are posted all over the net. Wolves are not desimating anything. You read about Yellowstone populations and the fact is elk are doing fine. Populations of elk in states where wolves live are doing fine. Sorry but the wolf hysteria is just not reality.

"The fact is elk were doing fine in the west until settlers came here. But guess what there were wolves here then too. So who should the elk be more afraid of, man or wolf? "
What do you got against the "settlers"?
They are what made this country strong and prosperous.
The elk are still doing fine in the west. Gee, I wonder why the wolf isn't here anymore??

Basically, what I am trying to say is that the west is too populated with people and progress(I guess you can call it that) now for a wolf population to exist the way it should ideally. You can't jamm all those critters and people to live that close together and not to expect trouble and conflicts.
You can all dream of having wolfs in your back yards, but it isn't going to happen.

The wolf isn't here anymore because of a belief that early ranchers had that wolves were flat out evil. A few wolves killed some livestock and they began killing every wolf they saw. Didn't matter if that wolf was 10 miles from home or not. This was WRONG. Nothing against the settlers but that view was not the right one. The settlers nearly eliminated the elk population also. The settlers made this country strong economically and politically but if left unregulated our natural resources would be all but gone today. The deer would be all but gone. The elk would be gone. It wasn't just wolves that suffered, they just suffered the most.

However I do believe that if a wolf is caught in the act of killing livestock a man ought to be able to shoot it.

I agree that the west has changed forever. I'm not saying the wolf should ever return to what it once was. But we can still co-exist with them. One thing I don't agree with is protecting them completely. There needs to be a management plan and a way to limit the wolf population. There needs to be a population objective and hunting seasons. With hunting you limit numbers and pressure keeps them out of populated areas for the most part. But lets face it nothing will ever be the same. Elk, mule deer, moose and every other species will never be what it once was.

I was just trying to say that portraying them as killing everything in sight is just not how it really is.