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[CVC]

I have been watching lots of hunts in Africa on tv, but I've noticed something that would deter me from hunting dangerous game.

It seems no matter how good the shot, the PH has to shoot the animal too. Sometimes, others beside the PH get in on the action.

I've seen this with cape buf and crocs. In the one instance, the guy put a dead on brain shot on the croc. The croc was motionless, but the PH had to get his shot in too.

The other one, the hunter made a great shot on a buf who dropped on the spot, but once again the PH and another hunter had to get their shots in.

I'm sorry, but if that is the way they do it, I wouldn't want to do it.

Any thoughts?

[kevin davis]

I have been to africa twice and only one had the ph shoot once, and that was because my third shot from the magazine hit a twig and missed the downed kudu. He did it to put the kudu down so I would not have to reload. the ph never shot on the two buffalo i took and actually never had a round in the chamber as the range was 100-120 yards. I agree that there is no need for extra shots. Maybe they all get video madness in front of the camera and feel the need to look macho.

[DUGABOY1]

kevin davis wrote: I have been to africa twice and only one had the ph shoot once, and that was because my third shot from the magazine hit a twig and missed the downed kudu. He did it to put the kudu down so I would not have to reload. the ph never shot on the two buffalo i took and actually never had a round in the chamber as the range was 100-120 yards. I agree that there is no need for extra shots. Maybe they all get video madness in front of the camera and feel the need to look macho.

I've seen more of this in Nroth America, than in Africa! I hunt with a group of friends for Russians, on occasion, and when a hog jumps up, they all shoot at it, no matter who saw the hog, and fired first. I simply leave my rifle full, and don't shoot! This is the way they like to hunt, so majority rules, but I always go home empty, because this isn't how I was brought up in the hunting field.

In Africa, some of what you are seeing, and may not understand is, with animals like Croc, he is not dead till his skin is tanned, so the back-up shots by the PH, or by you at his order. Others in the party have no ligetimate reason to shoot, unless the animals is about to hurt someone. The PH is obligated to send a parting shot at a Cape Buffalo, leopard, lion, or Elephant, that has been shot poorly, and is about to get in the weeds. The sorting out of these animals is very dangerous, and all the bullets you can get into him before he is out of sight, the better! I suspect, however, where you saw ten guys shooting at one buffalo was in a Mark Sullivan film! This is parr for the course in MS's mind, because it makes great films, and has nothing to do with his claim that he is letting the buffalo make the choice how he wants to die. This is in his responce to those who disagree with his purposely pushing the animal to get a charge for the film, and nothing to do with the animal's choice.

[Charl]

As a Professional hunter I can say this. I only do follow up shots if it is a dangerous animal, or if the situation gets dangerous if the animal is not originally perceived as dangerous. A Kudu bull nearly killed my dad once!

I have never taken a shot at an animal when a client is with me. He always gets the opportunity to finish the job himself. I am sure that most of my colleagues will agree with me on this.

It is another matter if the animal is wounded, and the client left, or is too tired to go on, and ASKS me to finish the job.

Don't let this deter you from going on the most awesome experience you will ever encounter in you hunting career/life.

[Don Fischer]

Having never been there but listening to creditable people that have have to say, to many of the film clips we see are for viewer entertainment. I saw one Mark Sullivan film and was appalled. But I have also read what others had had to say and think I'm finally sorting thru the chaff.

Wounded dangerious game, where ever found, requires someone to enter the brush with it. I think that means the PH. Even if you can chose to go, I don't think a good PH could or would let you go alone. That set's up the situtation where he not only has to watch for the now wounded and upset animal, but also for the "sport" that wounded it in the first place.

[Madoqua]

I am a hunting guide in Northern Namibia and this question has bothered me in the past. Some of my fellow guides give the follow-up shot no matter what happens but I think that each hunter is responsible for his or her own kill.

Unless it happens as it did in my case, where the client shot the moment the Oryx jumped forward and gut-shotted the bull. This was in thick Mopanie woodland and in a case like that an oryx is almost as dangerous as an old buffaloe. I decided to shoot rather than brave the thickets because in an similar incident three years earlier an oryx had almost gored my Khoe tracker.

So to shoot or not to shoot? It is a difficult call sometimes. However there is one circumstance where I would gladly take the follow up shot and that is when the client has shot an animal minutes before darkness descends. In which case you want the quarry on the ground as soon as possible because if it escapes then the jackal and hyena will have it before you do.

[Charl]

With great respect, I have hunted Gemsbok on my own and with clients in thick Mopanie, in the Limpopo Valley, and there have been only two unfotunate incidents where the client wounded the animal. None of them charged us, and I got the client to finish both the animals off.

There is a way to approach ANY wounded animal. Always approach the animal from behind, so that the back is visible to you. If he hears you, and he's aggresive, he will turn to face you, The cleint needs to shoot now, if he hesitates only a half second on your command then you should take action. Never get closer that 15 m from animal that the head is not down. (this is not an excat sience, just a few practical tips that I have learned in life)The client to you right, little behind you. Make sure you know where he and he's barrel is at all times (with first time guys, I go as far as taking the barrel in my right hand, to keep it out of harms way, and "guide" the client with the barrel, you don't want a lead pill up your bumm). You should always be at the ready, and sum the situation up, if you know animals well enough, you will see when he's going to fight. Then you shoot when/if the client hesitate. I had that happen to me with a Bushbuck, where I had to shoot it when it charged us in thick bush. The client would NEVER have reacted fast enough.

The matter of last light. Discuss this whole issue with your client before each hunt. We always have a discussion after dinner with the client to hear what he's happy to do and what not in situations like that. Do not have a pre-planned action, as you will most certainly end up with a unhappy client one day. It is a big deal for MOST people, to finish the hunt themselves. IT is their privilige that they pay for, and we need to respect that.

Hope this helps a bit........ :thumbsup1:

[redrider]

Curious as to how often the animal doesn't get killed in time and an unfortunate accident does happen?

[CVC]

Charl wrote:
Hope this helps a bit........ :thumbsup1:

What you wrote makes sense and is very reasonable. Certainly, I can understand shooting to protect the client, others and yourself.

Thanks

[Madoqua]

It seems you know your subject, Charl. Cannot find any fault with your explanations, thanks.
We do discuss the issue of last light, not after dinner though- they might have had a few to drink and that clouds judgements. and not when we see the quarry because the sight of it might also cloud judgement. I know my wildlife though, I have worked in the bush and in etosha N.P long enough to know how close and how to approach any animal.
The wounded oryx was lying of to one side and we nearly walked past it because me and the tracker lost the spoor and were searching for it again- I wasn't a very good tracker back then. To tell the truth I dont even know if the oryx was charging or just confused as to where to run. It might have been in a stupor/sleep and woke up confused, but i think it did charge with intent on bodily harm. ::-k

[Charl]

redrider wrote: Curious as to how often the animal doesn't get killed in time and an unfortunate accident does happen?

not very often at all. We read about horror stories often, but we need to cut the line where Dangerous six is concerned. Accidents with these animals are more likely to happen than with other game. In saying that, I would like to say that the only person that got seriously injured that I know in person, is a now retired PH (my dad) and he hunted for the best part of his life (50 years). The animal that got him was a Kudu Bull!! Yes a Kudu. Tame animal. not wounded, and it attacked him while the german clietn was filming the whole scene. He got one horn in the mounth, and ended up with a 157 stiches. This is a man that have hunted Big Five.

As mentioned before, the only animal that caused me some concern, was a Bush buck, but he did not get near the client, my .375 stopped him when he got up to charge us(and it was a charge). One of our PH's take safety so serious, that he gave the client the option to shoot a wounded Buff out of a chopper this year! Client declined, and the he went in to finish the job, on foot.

I would also like to point out that most clients that have hunted with me are good shots, even if it is their first Safari. The stories that goes around in PH circles, that foreigners are bad shots, and therefore a quick follow up shot is required, is a lot of Bull-... !!

Plainsgame hunting in Southern Africa should not be a dangerous affair. Usually the animals are docile, and when wounded they are not dangerous. But ALWAYS beware, they are WILD animal.

[Charl]

Madoqua wrote: It seems you know your subject, Charl. Cannot find any fault with your explanations, thanks.
We do discuss the issue of last light, not after dinner though- they might have had a few to drink and that clouds judgements. and not when we see the quarry because the sight of it might also cloud judgement. I know my wildlife though, I have worked in the bush and in etosha N.P long enough to know how close and how to approach any animal.
The wounded oryx was lying of to one side and we nearly walked past it because me and the tracker lost the spoor and were searching for it again- I wasn't a very good tracker back then. To tell the truth I dont even know if the oryx was charging or just confused as to where to run. It might have been in a stupor/sleep and woke up confused, but i think it did charge with intent on bodily harm. ::-k

I SEND YOU A PRIVAT MESSAGE, HAVE A LOOK!!!!!

[Charl]

Madoqua wrote: It seems you know your subject, Charl. Cannot find any fault with your explanations, thanks.
We do discuss the issue of last light, not after dinner though- they might have had a few to drink and that clouds judgements. and not when we see the quarry because the sight of it might also cloud judgement. I know my wildlife though, I have worked in the bush and in etosha N.P long enough to know how close and how to approach any animal.
The wounded oryx was lying of to one side and we nearly walked past it because me and the tracker lost the spoor and were searching for it again- I wasn't a very good tracker back then. To tell the truth I dont even know if the oryx was charging or just confused as to where to run. It might have been in a stupor/sleep and woke up confused, but i think it did charge with intent on bodily harm. ::-k

What you said can be true. I posted another thread with a picture of me and an Eland that I hunted. This animal was shot on the bridge of the nose with my .375 h&H and a 300gr SP. He went straight down, but was on his feet again in seconds. He was looking straight at us, when I took the shot (no other available option). He then came running straight at us. This was in thick mopanie as well. I kept my cool and at about 15 yards he turned away, and I managed to break his neck with a follow up shot.

Now. I firmly believed that the animal was dazed and confused by the 300gr slug passing under his brain, and did not know where he was going. Where was my faith full tracker? "Boss, that Eland was going to kill us" He was about 30 yards behind me in the only climbable tree around! :lol:
He sweared high and low to all the other hands, and hunters, that this Eland was charging us. Next year he will probably scare one of my clients that wants to hunt Eland with us sh..less with his story :lol:

[RMulhern]

Hmmmmmm......it's probably easy to 'Monday Morning Quarterback' some of these required experiences but if I were a PH......I'd EXPLAIN what was going to happen as far as a follow-up shot being required prior to a client booking a hunt with me and then.....if there were objections it would be best to work things out beforehand regarding this issue! This theory would solve lots of hard feelings possibly in the event a FUS was required! I'm quite certain that from time to time and from past experience a PH has seen certain situations take place whereby all on the hunt had occasion to shxt their britches.....and were it not for the quick and experienced reaction of the PH......some client or tracker would have had a horn or two up their rectum!! And I'm also quite certain that at times....there have been folks that have come to Africa to make a hunt that would have been more at home in a shopping mall in 'wherever' rather than in the bush of Africa!! :](*,) :](*,)

[CVC]

Geez, I posted this topic so long ago that I had to go back and re-read what I posted.

I was not referencing questionable shots where the animal is moving into the brush or charging, but shots where the hunter dropped the animal. It just turned into a shoot fest by the PH and other members of the party when the hunter could have done the follow up shots if they were necessary.

Funny that you brought this up because I was watching tv and saw this happening this week and thought about it again. In this case, it was a PH harvesting a management elephant. He was with the PH guide and they found a bull elephant. The client (PH) made a frontal brain shot and dropped the bull in his tracks. As he hit the ground and lay motionless the PH and the tracker both fired shots into it. The client (PH) moved in and fired several more shots, but I question why it is necessary for the follow-ups by the PH and the tracker in that situation.

For me, that would ruin the hunt as I would feel that it was a team taking of an animal and not an animal that I took. I was merely looking for insight into this situation.

RMulhern wrote: Hmmmmmm......it's probably easy to 'Monday Morning Quarterback' some of these required experiences but if I were a PH......I'd EXPLAIN what was going to happen as far as a follow-up shot being required prior to a client booking a hunt with me and then.....if there were objections it would be best to work things out beforehand regarding this issue! This theory would solve lots of hard feelings possibly in the event a FUS was required! I'm quite certain that from time to time and from past experience a PH has seen certain situations take place whereby all on the hunt had occasion to shxt their britches.....and were it not for the quick and experienced reaction of the PH......some client or tracker would have had a horn or two up their rectum!! And I'm also quite certain that at times....there have been folks that have come to Africa to make a hunt that would have been more at home in a shopping mall in 'wherever' rather than in the bush of Africa!! :](*,) :](*,)