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bitmasher · Joined: 27 Feb 2002 Posts: 2652 Location: Colorado

Wow, what a difference 24 hours makes, from fair chase to lots of ranting back to fair chase...

Yes breaking it out by the "sense" or drive that is being targeted helps to lure the game is a good way of rationalizing the debate. Hunger does appear to be the only type of baiting that people might raise issues with.

It really does depend on the species too, I got a kick out of Cob's posts here and on other threads where he is against baiting deer but not against spotlighting coyotes w/ motorcycle.

Cob, I'm not bashing you, I come from a ranching family where the coyote is the bane of the earth, so I understand. Just using that as a way to illustrate the point that the concept of fair chase is not unilaterally applied.

Is baiting the best chase (whatever precisely that means)? Probably not, but then spear hunting would probably be the best chase around, but I don't see anybody here that is against baiting, championing the idea that we should lay down our guns and compound bows and revert to spears, to put more fairness in the chase. Fair chase is a scale that slides with time.

Ontarget be careful there man! I'd actually feel bad if you broke something over a doe piss post. :wink:

expatriate · Joined: 26 Oct 2002 Posts: 1520 Location: Alaska

Bit, notice the number of times the words "hand thrown" appear in Alabama's hunting regs regarding spears. Neolithic technology isn't exempt from fair chase issues, either.

This brings up an interesting point: isn't "fair chase" a new (i.e. recent 50 years) concept? Did our ancestors care about being sporting, or did they do whatever it took to put meat in the pot?

The concept of fair chase seems to have developed similarly to the Geneva Conventions. Rapid improvements in technology produced a kind of culture shock that drove people to want to avoid the kind of social upheaval that comes with change. We see this today as states wrangle with laws about ATVs, radio collars, FRS radios, illuminated sights, hearing amplifiers, motion detecting cameras, etc.

I sometimes wonder if baiting came into vogue during the 20th century as deer populations declined in some parts of the country and hunting competition increased. But now with fewer hunters and exploding deer populations, it sounds like it doesn't gain you anything anymore.

[ This Message was edited by: expatriate on 2002-11-18 01:09 ]

cob · Joined: 28 Oct 2002 Posts: 65 Location: Texas panhandle

I just have to defend myself real quick. Baiting deer and hunting coyotes from a motorcycle are 2 totaly different things. there are LOTS of coyotes around where i live and they need to be thinned. As a matter of fact the county used to pay for coyote ears (just proof at how bad they are)

cowgal · Joined: 10 Mar 2002 Posts: 994 Location: Colorado

Hi Cob!

I hear you on the coyote problems. I come from a ranching family and it gets pretty bad with all the predators. Coyote is one you don't get reimbursed for like you do with bear and lion kills.

However, I think what makes this thread's discussion interesting is what level of baiting (or other assistance, like spotlighting, etc.) is acceptable to most hunters. And obviously what's acceptable for one species may not be for another.

bitmasher · Joined: 27 Feb 2002 Posts: 2652 Location: Colorado

Expatriate, yes, I suppose they want to make sure your not putting firepower behind the spear. Of course as a practical point, in reference to one of your earlier comments, I think if you can throw an ATV, there is no wildlife officer that is going to willing tell you what you can or cannot do.

Chief Wildlife Officer: Lt Underling you see that man over yander twirling the ATV on his index finger?

Lt Underling Officer: Yes sir, I do sir. What about him sir?

Chief: He is breaking every rule of fair chase, not giving the deer a chance I tell you, with triceps like that the guy can toss an ATV a good clean 50 yards. That is illegal, Lt, rule book clearly states, no one shall participate in the ATV hunting toss season who can exceed a standing hurl of precisely 30 yards! Not giving the deer a chance I tell you and we don't stand for falling ATV's smooshing Bambi unless it is under 30 yards!

Underling: Yes sir, definitely illegal, sir.

Chief: Now, Underling I want you to disarm that man. Just kindly go over and tell him to put the ATV down.

Underling: Uhhh...Yes Sir... will you be giving me assistance sir?

Chief: Why certainly Underling, I'm just going to sit behind the truck here, and rattle some antlers, you know try to create a diversion for Mr. Triceps. With any luck he will toss the ATV at the truck instead of you.

Underling: But Sir, we are 200 yards away!

Chief: That's ok Underling I've got you covered. My rattling will wake the dead, he'll hear me....

.............................................................................

Point to Ponder: What does it mean to disarm a man who's weapon is his arms?

Cob, no defense necessary. I was only trying to back up Expatriate's point that "fair chase" depends on the species involved.

[ This Message was edited by: bitmasher on 2002-11-20 00:26 ]

expatriate · Joined: 26 Oct 2002 Posts: 1520 Location: Alaska

I heard Mutual of Omaha was bringing back "Wild Kingdom;" sounds like you have an advance copy of the script. And I thought Marlon Perkins was dead!

On the other hand, maybe they could get that guy from "Crocodile Hunter" to do it:

"Crikey! Loook at the soize of that ai tee vee! What a bruiser! These rednecks can be a real danga if they see you mowvin ahp on them. Oill get his attention and 'ope 'ee thraws it at the trahck, giving me a chance to grab his beeya and immowbiloize him..."

Keepitsimple · Joined: 19 Nov 2002 Posts: 44 Location: Northern Wisconsin

Baiting is a lazy way to hunt. I know, I've done it. There was no challenge and little thrill involved. I shot several deer with both rifle and bow over bait...lazy. Then I challenged myself to learn how to hunt. The day I shot a nice 7 point buck from 7 yards with my bow...no bait, stands as one of my best hunting moments. Since then I've come to appreciate the hunting experience for it's totality and while I don't always see deer every time I go out, I experience nature as intended and when a wary whitetail makes it's way down a narrow trail or edges it's way up a steep draw and finds itself under my stand....that's living.

expatriate · Joined: 26 Oct 2002 Posts: 1520 Location: Alaska

For the record, hunting deer with bait is illegal in Alabama. And there's good reason, too. Alabama has over 1.75 million whitetails, and a typical harvest is over 250,000 per year. There's a huge swath across the state where whitetail populations exceed 45 per square mile. The limit for buck season is one deer PER DAY. During hunter's choice season, the limit is two per day, only one of which may be an antlered buck. Seasons generally run from late November through mid to late January. Who needs to bait?

[ This Message was edited by: expatriate on 2002-11-20 22:13 ]

bitmasher · Joined: 27 Feb 2002 Posts: 2652 Location: Colorado

Well said Keepitsimple.

pyrokrazy · Joined: 05 Dec 2003 Posts: 15 Location: S.E. Oklahoma

if you bait hunt you might as well raise livestock and get paid for it; it domesticates the game...

"Wow, Bob. Howd ya get all those nice trophys?"
"Aww.. Twern't nuttin'... Just stand behind that tree past the feed trough yonder on opening day."

_________________
"just an old-fashioned countryboy"

[ This Message was edited by: pyrokrazy on 2003-12-06 22:45 ]

bitmasher · Joined: 27 Feb 2002 Posts: 2652 Location: Colorado

Good gravy. THE baiting thread raises its ugly head again. Some things never die.

Welcome Pyro.

magnus89 · Joined: 30 Nov 2003 Posts: 2

I hate to agree with the anti-hunters, but bait hunting is not hunting. Furthermore, killing a selected animal from an elevated wooden box over a food plot is not hunting either. The Outdoor Channel is not doing hunters a favor by showing this type of footage. It's hard to justify sitting in a wooden box over a food plot as hunting.

mister_venison · Joined: 08 Dec 2003 Posts: 134 Location: Wisconsin

Baiting is a tool to use just like anything else. I myself prefer more traditional methods, but I will harvest a deer off of a cornpile if the season is late and the freezer is empty, especially during bow season. Many people do not have the time to spend on scouting and putting up tree stands and patterning deer. For those people, baiting can help (not guarantee) them get venison, whether or not it was "fair chase". This also achieves some measure of herd management. For those who can spend countless hours in the field, count yourselves lucky. If some people have a better chance of getting a deer using bait, why not let them? it doesn't mean everyone has to do it. It isn't the best hunting has to offer, but it does serve a purpose.