BigGameHunt.net Hunting Forums

[expatriate]

Buck:
I used to raise hogs, so I'll bite on the inhumane confinement issue. The web site you posted showed election results, but didn't say what the proposal addressed.

I have a feeling what it is, though. If it's what I suspect, it's a classic case of ARs extending human concepts of freedom and democracy to the animal world. And as anybody who's raised livestock knows, when you look in their eyes it ain't a person in there.

One thing is consistent across the species, however. Pregnant sows aren't any more interested in running laps around the barn than pregnant women are. And I believe they like their autonomy when pregnant.

Aside from that, it's a guaranteed fact that if the sow isn't isolated when she downloads, the newborn pigs won't last long because they'll get stepped on. That ain't humane, and it ain't pretty, either.

ARs always overlook one major point. Stressed animals don't gain weight, produce eggs, or do anything else well. Thus, anything that causes stress to an animal costs the farmer money -- especially if it's a sow about to unload 14 future pork bellies. Therefore, creating stress for animals is counterproductive to a farmer. He's more motivated than anyone on the planet to insure his stock is healthy and well adjusted. It's asinine for ARs to assume that a farmer somehow becomes more efficient by abusing his stock.

[ This Message was edited by: expatriate on 2002-11-05 22:09 ]

[bucknaked40]

Its the farrowing crates: But now that hogs have constitutional rights it will become a lawyers dream and enable them to sue people in the pigs name or whatever.

[expatriate]

I thought as much. I wonder, who's going to enforce the square footage rule?

It's also curious that there's humans are allowed to live in refrigerator boxes, but now there's a constitutional provision guaranteeing living conditions for hogs. I don't know the breakout by county, but it sure sounds to me like this one was voted in by an urban population who saw inflammatory pictures on TV. Once again, this demonstrates how an ignorant electorate can make some serious blunders.

Alexis de Toqueville warned us about tyranny of the masses in the early 19th Century.

[bucknaked40]

Whats happening today is not mass tyranny it's MOB RULE.Elsewhere, the Denver Rocky Mountain News reported this morning that a respected Colorado State University researcher is openly criticizing a colleague for overstating the human risk of contracting CWD, ostensibly in order to attract grant money for his work. Professor Terry Spraker told a meeting of the Colorado Agricultural Commission that “even though hundreds of thousands of people have handled and consumed infected animals, there has not been one confirmed case of CWD in humans.” And the Wisconsin Medical Society agrees, saying: “There is no need to panic. We have not seen a case of CWD in people.”

[expatriate]

Wisconsin hasn't seen a case of CWD in people. But what about folks in Europe?

It's my understanding that prion-based diseases may take considerable time to manifest themselves. Also, I don't know what the difference is between CWD and CJD, and there's definitely been cases of CJD in people.

Folks that have spent time in Europe (until recently) know they can't donate blood. So this suggests that prions can lay quietly in your system for some time.

I'm a little unsure of your point, Buck. Are you arguing that scientists are attempting to deliberately downplay the threat of CWD, or are you arguing that there's nothing to worry about?

[bucknaked40]

I'm not arguing anything I,m just posting information so people can make up their own minds and can see how people can mislead them as to their own agenda. The scientist in Colorado has his interests at heart MONEY!

[bucknaked40]

Singer, Peter
Author of "Animal Liberation"; founder of International Association of Bioethics
Comparing newborn human babies and pigs: "I would guess that the pig is more self-aware, particularly if the infant has a brain disease and has no capacity to see itself as self-aware." On which has more of a right to life, the infant or the pig: "I think you'd have to say that the pig has the greater claim."
Boston Globe, in "Singer Savaged in US Arena", July 29, 1999.

[bucknaked40]

Dear Sportsmen and Animal Owners,

Thank you for voting last Tuesday. Thank you for visiting http://saova.org and studying the materials and recommendations there. Thank you for volunteering and donating to candidates. Thank you for discussing the election and its candidates with your neighbors and friends. While the big election news was the Republicans gaining control of the Senate, there's another important story that needs telling.

In an era when incumbents literally can't lose, animal rightist HUMANE USA PAC lost twelve solid animal rightist politicians. That's the real untold story of this election.

Defeated in Primary

Earl Hilliard (D-AL7) - AR Supported, SAOVA Opposed
Frank Mascara (D-PA12) - AR Supported, SAOVA Opposed
Cynthia McKinney (D-GA4) - AR Supported, SAOVA Opposed
Lynn Rivers (D-MI15) - AR Supported, SAOVA Opposed
Tom Sawyer (D-OH17) - AR Supported, SAOVA Opposed
Sen. Bob Smith (R-NH) - AR Supported, SAOVA Opposed

Defeated in General

Felix Grucci (R-NY1) - AR Supported, SAOVA Opposed
Bill Luther (D-MN2) - AR Supported, SAOVA Opposed
Jim Maloney (D-CT2) - AR Supported, SAOVA Opposed
Connie Morella (R-MD8) - AR Supported, SAOVA Opposed
David Phelps (D-IL19) - AR Supported, SAOVA Opposed
Sen. Max Cleland (D-GA) - AR Supported, SAOVA Opposed

Other factors and issues also influenced these politicians' defeats, but to varying degrees, their support of the animal rightist agenda and our recognition of that support cost them their seats. Sportsmen and animal owners should be gratified that their informed votes do matter. These defeats also send a message to legislators: "Blind adherence to the radical animal rightist agenda may cost you your job."

Most of the open seat candidates endorsed by SAOVA were elected. We're sending some very strong new legislators to Washington, particularly to the House. Our sense is that the new Senate will be only slightly less animal rightist inclined; our problems weren't solved in a single election. Animal rightist support is bi-partisan, including both Democrats and Republicans. Had the Democratic Party swept the field last Tuesday, the listing above would have included more GOP members. While the majority of HUMANE USA PAC's endorsements were Democrats, half of the animal rightist bills introduced in the last two years were sponsored by Republicans.

Most of you understand that single issue politics and voting doesn't often make good sense. It's equally important to remember that threats to our sport and animal ownership aren't exclusive to either political party. Thank you again for your support. Please continue to study the issues and never miss an opportunity to educate a politician, or a friend.

Sincerely,

Bob Kane
Sportsmen's and Animal Owners' Voting Alliance
http://saova.org

[bucknaked40]

From The New York Times About The Man Who Said.......
"Christianity is our foe. If animal rights is to succeed, we must destroy the Judeo-Christian religious tradition."


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

An Animal's Place
By MICHAEL POLLAN


The first time I opened Peter Singer's ''Animal Liberation,'' I was dining alone at the Palm, trying to enjoy a rib-eye steak cooked medium-rare. If this sounds like a good recipe for cognitive dissonance (if not indigestion), that was sort of the idea. Preposterous as it might seem, to supporters of animal rights, what I was doing was tantamount to reading ''Uncle Tom's Cabin'' on a plantation in the Deep South in 1852............


Source: http://www.nytimes.com/2002/11.....r=MOREOVER

[bucknaked40]

What's The Difference Between Breeding Gamefowl In Oklahoma And Breeding Dogs In Boise?

Could We Say One Is A Felony And One Is Slowly On It's Way To Becoming A Felony?


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Boise, ID Faces Breeding Restrictions
[Friday, November 08, 2002]
A fast-moving proposal in Boise could severely impact the breeding rights of local fanciers. The ordinance has already been read once, and a public hearing is scheduled for November 19th.

What the Ordinance Does:
Raises license fees for unaltered dogs from $20 to $60 per animal.


Requires owners of intact dogs to obtain an unaltered animal permit. Breeders must include this permit number in any puppy sale advertisements.


Directs anyone who sells or gives away an intact dog to maintain records of the new owner. If within one month the owner is unable to keep the animal, the seller or donator will be required to repossess the animal or assist in its placement with a new owner.


Requires anyone who sells or gives a dog away to provide the new owner with information about licensing and rabies vaccination requirements, along with other health information.


Substantially increases impound fees for dogs. If the dog is unaltered, owners will face the following additional fees: $75 for a first offense, $300 for second or subsequent.
The AKC opposes the concept of breeding permits, breeding bans and mandatory spay/neuter of purebred dogs. Instead, we support reasonable and enforceable laws that protect the welfare and health of purebred dogs and do not restrict the rights of responsible breeders and owners.

The proposed ordinance in Boise will unfairly punish responsible breeders who contribute healthy, well-adjusted puppies to the pet-buying public. At the same time, it fails to address the irresponsible individuals who do not comply with existing law and will not comply with new regulations. Additionally, although the AKC supports reasonable legislation designed to protect the pet-buying public, we are very concerned about the wording of this provision.

It is crucial for Boise fanciers to attend the hearing on November 12th to express their opposition to this ordinance. For those who can not attend, convey your concerns in letters and phone calls to the city council. Local purebred dog owners have begun mobilizing a grassroots opposition campaign, but more help is needed! For further information, contact the Idaho Capital City Kennel Club (clouss@wy-os.net, 208-345-5197).

Boise City Council
150 N. Capital Boulevard
City Hall, 3rd Floor
Boise, ID 83702
208-384-4422 (Phone)
208-384-4420 (Fax)

The Honorable H. Brent Coles. Mayor
Council Member Mike Wetherell, President
Council Member Vernon Bisterfeldt
Council Member Paula Forney
Council Member Jerome Mapp
Council Member Jon Mason


Source: http://www.akc.org/news/index.cfm?article_id=1592

[bucknaked40]

Florida Elections Commission



In 1973, the legislature created the Florida Elections Commission to enforce the campaign finance laws. The Commission investigates alleged violations upon receipt of a legally sufficient, sworn complaint. If the Commission finds a violation of the election laws, it can levy a fine of up to $1,000 per count.
http://www.fec.state.fl.us/




"But the most watched battle on the animal-rights radar screen was a heavily funded and unethically run effort to give pregnant pigs specific protections under Florida's constitution. This was approved by a 55-to-45 margin yesterday.

Ironically, the election season is not quite over for Farm Sanctuary, the national animal rights group that donated over $465,000 to this campaign. On November 14 and 15, the Florida Elections Commission will hear evidence that Farm Sanctuary broke campaign finance laws
(210 counts in all) in its zeal to get the "pregnant pigs" amendment on the ballot."
http://www.consumerfreedom.com.....NE_ID=1656




If you wish to report a violation of Chapters 104, 106, or Section 105.071, Florida Statutes,
you can download a copy of the complaint form here.
Confidential Complaint Form


[ This Message was edited by: bucknaked40 on 2002-11-10 20:11 ]

[expatriate]

If hogs had a religion, the farmer would be their God.

[bucknaked40]

Hansen Files Landmark Bill to Restore Original Intent of ESA

Exempts private property, military lands and all plant life from ESA



Retiring House Resources Chairman James V. Hansen today filed a bill that would exempt military lands, private property and all plant life from the Endangered Species Act.

Hansen called the bill “a shot across the bow from a retiring chairman” and a blueprint for bold changes that reflect what Congress originally intended when it passed the law more than 30 years ago. “I’m just greasing the wheels for change here, giving my colleagues something they can act on swiftly in the next Congress,” Hansen said.

Growing problems with the ESA cost consumers and taxpayers more than a billion a year in litigation, lost profits, lost jobs and rising operating costs for both government and business, according to estimates from private groups.

In some instances, private property owners can’t walk their own property. Some military bases can’t use their own land for mission-critical training at a time when America is on the verge of war.

Chairman Hansen’s statement:

“After working with this law during my 22 years in Congress, I’ve concluded it’s the most powerful law in the land. It can be used to thwart everything from the training of our fighter pilots to the farmer’s simple desire to plant a crop in his field so he can feed his family.

“Right now, in this country, the rights of an endangered fly or a species of seaweed take precedence over national security, commerce and many people’s right to the enjoyment of property and the pursuit of happiness.

“Our founding fathers would be appalled. This government was founded on a few key concepts, among them the need to provide a common defense and the protection of individual property rights. These days, ESA is tripping up even that. This legislation moves the federal government in the direction of working cooperatively with private land owners. Under current law, the only option to protect endangered species is legal confrontation.

“Congress crafted this law nearly 40 years ago to protect large species like the grizzly, wolf and bald eagle from extinction. Frankly, the ESA hasn’t done a particularly good job of protecting anything but lawyers’ pocketbooks. Outlawing DDT did more for our wildlife than the ESA has done.

“Meanwhile roads have been stalled, homes lost, countless jobs forfeited and thousands of acres locked up because of this ham-fisted law. Republicans and Democrats have long recognized that something needs to be done to fix the Endangered Species Act. I’m just making it easy for everybody next year by dropping a bill now with the three simple changes that could fix this law.

“If we exempt private property, military lands and all plants from the ESA, we would, in short order, have a more prosperous and secure nation and still have a healthy and abundant wildlife. We would create thousands of jobs, jump-start our economy, free up our clogged court system and still protect our wildlife.

I’d wager my federal pension you could make these changes and the populations of threatened and endangered species would remain the same. The numbers didn’t improve when we started stripping people of their rights. I doubt they’ll go down any once we restore those rights.”



Source: http://resourcescommittee.hous.....112ESA.htm

[bucknaked40]

From the land that gave PIGS constitutional rights here is one to take away another one of yours (PRIVACY)Florida firm seeks to microchip Americans




By Laura MacInnis

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - A Washington forum debated on Friday the benefits and hazards posed by a new way of identifying people with a microchip implanted under their skin to replace conventional paper identification.

The heated debate at the National Academies, a non-profit think-tank advising the government on matters of technology and science, focused on the threat to individual privacy versus the convenience of switching to a chip.

Implanted microchips have long been used in the animal kingdom, to track wildlife and to help pet owners recover their lost animals, but the idea of using them on humans has sparked fierce criticism from scientists and privacy advocates alike.

"We have absolutely no data about this particular product and about the implications over the long term if Americans are chipped," Marc Rotenberg, director of the Electronic Privacy Information Center in Washington, said.

Applied Digital Solutions Inc. says its glass capsule the size of a grain of rice, injected into forearms and other fleshy body parts, could help authorities find missing persons and speed up medical diagnosis treatment.

The VeriChip, a scannable device worn under the skin and encrypted with personal information like medical records and emergency contacts, was unveiled last year in Florida.

So far about 20 people have been "chipped", including an entire family in Florida.

"I can't feel them at all," said Richard Seeling, an Applied Digital executive who has implanted two microchips into his right forearm to test the product. "Most of the time I forget they're there until someone asks about it."

Seeling said the chips were both painless and safe but scientists at the National Academies said too little was known about the device and warned it could pose health risks like infections and immunity disorders for bearers.

The U.S. Food and Drug Administration ruled in October it would not regulate the device so long as it was not used for medical purposes such as diagnosis.

This left Applied Digital free to market the chip for personal identification and security, for instance locating missing children or identifying car accident victims.

"I do think there could be beneficial uses, particularly for Alzheimer's patients, but on a large scale this is essentially a system of control," Rotenberg said.

Privacy advocates worry the microchip could spell the end of anonymity in the United States, particularly if authorities began requiring people to wear them to meet conditions of parole, employment or border crossings.

Seeling said each chip costs about $200, and that scanner devices needed to read the data would be targeted for sale to police, hospitals, schools and other agencies across the United States.


Source: http://in.tech.yahoo.com/021116/137/1xuz0.html

[bucknaked40]

Waterkeeper Alliance

"We’re starting with hogs. After we get done with the hogs, then we’re gonna go after the other ones."
— Waterkeeper Alliance president Robert F. Kennedy, Jr., December 6, 2000

"Why don’t we put them out of business?"
— Charles Speer, one of the attorneys in charge of recruiting other lawyers to attack the pork industry, quoted in the Wilmington (NC) Morning Star, January 12, 2001

"We have attorneys now who have money and they know what they’re doing. They are the best in the country and we are going to put an end to this industry."
— Kennedy, on NPR’s Weekend Edition, February 18, 2001

"We will march across this country and we will bring these kind of lawsuits against every single pork factory in America if we have to…. Whatever it takes to win."
— Kennedy, in the Los Angeles Times, March 1, 2001

"You don’t hire a child molester to run a nursery school. It’s a conflict of interest."
— Riverkeeper founder Robert H. Boyle in the New York Times (Nov. 5, 2000) after Robert F. Kennedy, Jr. hired a convicted environmental felon as the organization’s chief scientific analyst

"He [RFK Jr.] is very reckless. He’s assumed an arrogance above his intellectual stature."
— Robert Boyle, after Robert F. Kennedy hired a convicted environmental felon as the group’s chief scientific analyst, as quoted in the New York Post, June 22, 2000


Background
The Waterkeeper Alliance has declared war on America’s pork industry, and Robert F. Kennedy, Jr. is in charge of the battle plan. Officially, Waterkeeper is a coalition of more than 80 “neighborhood watch” programs for America’s rivers, bays, and shorelines. But this is thin political cover for the real coalition here -- one of big-money trial lawyers (many of them still counting their tobacco-settlement fees) who see billion-dollar payouts where most consumers see ribs, ham, and bacon.

Kennedy’s involvement with the group dates back to the mid-1980s, when he was a prosecutor in the Manhattan district attorney’s office. According to Kennedy’s own accounts, he was also a secret heroin addict, disguising himself and visiting Harlem to buy illegal drugs by night. That double life caught up with him in 1984 when he was arrested and charged with heroin possession. As part of a plea arrangement, Kennedy was sentenced to 800 hours of community service, which he worked off by volunteering at the Hudson River Foundation. This group was later absorbed by the Hudson Riverkeepers, the Waterkeeper Alliance’s flagship constituent group.

Today, the nerve center of the Robert Kennedy environmental empire consists of three groups: the Waterkeeper Alliance, the Hudson Riverkeepers (sometimes known simply as “Riverkeeper”), and the Pace University Environmental Law Clinic, where Waterkeeper and Riverkeeper both keep a mailing address. The group functions as one.

The larger enviro-conglomerate has been a wholly owned subsidiary of Robert Kennedy since June of 2000 (see “Black Eye”); around that time, he began trading on his family name in order to assemble a “dream team” of attorneys who were interested in applying to pork producers the legal model made famous by tobacco lawyers. Assisted by long-time Kennedy family friends like Hiram Eastland and Jan Schlichtmann (of A Civil Action fame), Kennedy has recruited lawyers from 15 national law firms, most in states where hog farming has a significant presence. One such attorney, Richard H. Middleton, Jr., is the immediate past president of the Association of Trial Lawyers of America (and still runs the trial lawyers’ Political Action Committee).

Each firm has committed itself to an initial $50,000 ante, which is pocket change compared to the size of the awards these lawyers are hoping for. In January of 2001, Kennedy himself estimated potential “damages” against the pork industry at $9-13 billion. If they prevail, the lawyers will keep a huge percentage for themselves.

About half of the law firms contributing attorney-muscle to Kennedy’s crusade have experience suing tobacco companies (the ultimate legal cash cow). Likewise, about half are involved with class-action suits against antibiotic manufacturer Bayer. It’s interesting to note that on January 18, 2002 Kennedy joined Environmental Defense’s Rebecca Goldburg in a press conference denouncing Bayer for its continued marketing of the livestock antibiotic Baytril. One might imagine being a fly on the wall when Kennedy and his stable of lawyers agreed to publicly attack each other’s sworn enemies, confident that the connection would arouse no public concern.

In addition to these lawyers’ deep pockets, the Waterkeeper Alliance stays afloat through foundation su