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[bustbigking]

So the time has come. All you riffle hunter's out there are gearing up if you have not already and are on the prowl for a buck and elk. I was vary shocked and upset on my drive home from Montana yesterday afternoon when I saw too many to count, truck's loaded full of Deer and Elk hanging over the bed linner. And you wonder why the environmentals hate hunter's. I saw one truck with 3 masher 5x5 that they had all hanging out of the side of the truck. It looked like they were a bunch of poacher's loaded down after a day's shoot. I'm not saying they are poachers but from anyone who does not know about the season's and hunting would think that that is vary unethical. Durring the bow season you might see one truck with a deer in the back or maybe be at the local butcher and see a few spike elk and a couple nice buck's come in. My friend was at his local butcher at a vary well known hunting hot spot and saw over 10 guy's come in with pisser 3 pointer's that where vary young and a 100lb black bear that was completly ruened from the gun shot to the rib cage. The butcher, a fellow bow hunter/ riffle hunter could not believe these guy's and what they were killing. Most of them said they shot over 150 yrds. Now I have been seeing more and more of this kind of hunting the more i really look into it and I just don't know what some people get out of killing a young deer or cub at 150 + yrds. I know that there are alot of riffle hunter's out there that are vary ethical and smart when it comes to harvesting a animal but it seem's as though too many guy's are getting into hunting to just go kill whatever moves. My buddy that lives on the east side said he has never seen this many orange dot's on the hill as he did on sat. And the noise from the gun shot's was enough to scare anything from the coast to Idaho. Is this really hunting or is it turning into a free for all kill whatever you see gig. Let's hear what you think about the rising population of riffle hunter's in the wood's and if the regulation's should be adjusted to meet the growth.

[littlebuf]

This post should have been deleted when it was written, my fault I missed it. Name calling is not tolerated. No more of this.

bustbigking, I apologize again for missing this.

Don

[rezhunter]

Well you think about it, all of these hunters have tags, and only certain amount of tags are issued for a reason. There are some bad apples out there and there always will be. All the bucks, elk I've seen truck stops had tags, I just BS around with them and tell them congrats. I myself only take out older game, but it all depends, if you have a tag thats only for certain amount of days it makes it hard and puts lot of pressure to find that old guy so one may take what they can get to fill their tag. Who knows.. I haven't seen anything bad. Just in the news of poachers killing and leaving the game. I wouldn't really ask this type of question in a hunters forum though. What do you think about slaughter houses for cattle/pigs? lol

[BrewCrew]

Wow, I am always a little aggravated when I listen to a fellow hunter who thinks they are above other hunters. And oddly enough, 9 times out of ten, it's always a bowhunter. Somehow, you have the notion in your head that somehow a rifle hunter is not worthy of hunting prowess simply because we use rifles. Let me fill you in on some information. While bow-hunting requires a great amount of skill, you get to hunt in the beginning of August and in early December. These are both times that are much more favorable for hunting than most rifle seasons. In August, Deer and Elk are in their summer locations and feeding and bedding in generally the same areas as they have been all Spring and Summer. They are more relaxed and travel in greater numbers, and the weather is usually beneficial in the visibility department. And of course in December, we all know that just about anyone can bang some antlers or blow a call and call in a buck or bull simply becuase they are so dumb and wanting to hump anything that resembles a female. My point here is that you somehow hold yourself up on a pedestal when actually your are an equal. Tags are issued in numbers that help to achieve "Management Objectives" and it's not uncommon at all to see hundreds of hunters in areas that are easy to access through driving. Animal populations actually become stronger and smarter through hunting and if an area yields 20 bucks in a day, than that just means that there are great numbers of bucks in that particular region. 95% of hunting units have less than a 20% success rate harvesting animals. So your portrayal that rifle hunters are involved in some sort of "Bloodfest" and out to only kill anything with hair, is profoundly false in my opinon. Granted, there will always be peolpe that break the rules, but that is not just limited to rifle hunters. I myself witnessed two bow hunters illigally harvesting Does this year while I was scouting, and on top of that, they lost one Doe with an arrow in her. So don't give me this ******** your spreading. It's bad for hunting and it's bad for hunters. We will self govern ourselves, and CERTAINLY don't need some suit in an office building in a city far away somewhere telling us how and what to hunt.

[littlebuf]

well said brew, i know a bow hunter who is a notorious poacher, he's been on WSFG's watch list for years and is currently serving a year in jail with a 50,000 dollar fine waiting for him when he gets out :[-X arnt you just shocked bust :o a perfect in every way bow hunter :roll: how could it happen

[AllensGirl83]

I don't post here, like at all, I just enjoy coming here from time to time and looking for advice or reading ppls hunting stories and what not, but I couldn't pass this one up. I have something to say about the comment about taking young deer or elk (which ever). In my family we hunt to EAT, I don't know what you do with your meat but...... I rifle hunt and my boyfriend bow hunts and you bet your *** if a year old spike jumps out in front of his *** he's killin it, he has a family to provide for. Most ppl hunt for meat at least thats what I thought. Anyways thats all and Thank You for your time.

[Don Fischer]

I think that bustbigking has made some valid points. Especially about the animals hanging over the PU bed liners. It doesn't bother me but you can bet a lot of people are offended by it. Under the circumstances, I don't think we would want to offend anyone.

As for shooting the small animals, well they are legal! The thing that bothers me would be the sorry shooting I see that mangle some of these animals so badly. And the dead animals I find laying around with an arrow in the carcass. There is no requirements that anyone has to be proficient with any weapon, only that they use the right weapon for the season they hunt. I have a hard time saying it's legal to that one!

I also don't believe most people hunt for the meat anymore. If they did they sure wouldn't take a little animal. Lot more meat on a barren doe than a yearling. For that matter, there's not a lot of meat on most deer anyway. Hunting is for the most part a sport, few people hunt for subsistence and target small deer and bears. For most people the meat, however much or little, is nothing more than the spoils for participating in the sport. I wonder if you had your choice of a trophy tag where the animal you shoot had to have a certain min score or a subsistence tag where all you could shoot was a spike or does but, you got say three tags on that hunt, which would you choose? I think most would then choose the subsistence tags even tho most could buy far more beef than they could shoot deer for the money they spend. That wouldn't be subsistence then would it? If your not a trophy hunter and don't need the meat then it's simply sport hunting. And if it's simply sport, I think especially then the sport should be proficient in the use of his weapon, rifle or bow. I doubt many subsistence hunters really hunt with a bow, odds are to short for success.

Weather we like what was said in the original post or not, we are pursuing this sport and parading it around for the general public to see with no concern for who sees it. I think discretion is in order to protect the sport.

That said, I saw a guy going toward Cal during bear season with a dead bear lying on his 4 wheeler, mouth propped open with an mty beer can. Wonder what that says to an anti or more importantly, a fence sitter?

Every now and again I think we need to be reminded that people are watching us and like it or not, they are forming their opinions based on what they see.

This does seem like it might get a bit heated, keep is to a dull roar.

[crbaker333]

haha in oregon there is a lot of poaching and guess who it always is bowhunters.... i know one guy who is banned for life for hunting in oregon...... my buddies dad 2 years ago he had an 8x7 bull, 6x6 bull 4x3 bull and a spike bull and a nice 4pt blacktail buck hanging all at once in his shop...all shot by him.... guess what none of them were tagged cuz his hunting license was suspended for a year from the year befores hunting violation........so last year guess what the state policemen that caught him the year before followed him opening morning....from the guess house........ watch him shoot a 6x5 bull.....arrested him while gutting it out........now the guy is in jail......this is just one guy from my area there are many more bowhunting poachers in my area....

[Don Fischer]

It is not always bow hunters and it is not always rifle hunters. I would guess it is more often someone with a rifle rather than a bow.

[bustbigking]

Well as for the comment by brew crew about anyone can call a bull in durring december. Well you must be the one guy that cant because everyone knows the rut is way over by then and the bulls esspecialy are worn out and are vary silent. I would love to see you call a bull inn during the late hunt. I have been calling elk for some time now and alway's have success during the rut in early sep, but never hear a peep out of the bulls in the late season. Esspecialy not in return to estrus calls. And as for the every poacher is a bow hunter idea. A poacher is not a hunter for one. And the reason they are using a bow is because it's silent. Unlike a gun no one can hear you shoot. That is a no brainer there. As for hunting for meat. If your hunting for meat like fisher say's, your not going to shoot a pisser spike or young buck. Just to let you hater's out there know, I am not on some pedistule im just pointing out problems and fact's. I just picked up my elk yesterday and when talking with the butcher 3 guy's brought doe's in. And he already had about 5 in his cooler. I'm not sure but i think there is only one area open to any deer and I dont think all these guy's shot them in that area and I don't think they all had a special permit and some how all went to the same butcher. I think it's lack of knowledge with reading the laws and pressure on the closing days of the hunt and guy's are shooting does in areas that are most likley not open. The buthcer was really questioning taking them, and there was another guy there picking his meat up that was saying you better check those tags on the does and varify the area hunted. I also ran into the local game warden that I know pretty well and he along with another local game warden all laugh about how busy they are busting idiot's durring the riffle season. It's not just me saying all this stuff as an opinion. It's real problems and it's getting out of hand. The game warden said, Quote "you better stay out of the wood's unless you want to get shot by some drunk riffle hunter" . Funny those words were comming from the law offical that knows way more than all us about what goes on during each season and who the real problem child is. I bow hunt for the challenge and the respect for the rest of the wildlife in the area. Dont get angry your the topic of today's dicustion. Come up with real fact's or some ideas that acually make sence and or are not just angry hate words. It's ok your a riffle hunter, just dont be a "Idiot riffle hunter"

[Romey]

Im going to inject a couple points in here as well coming from a observation of a guide, hich isnt alot different then many of you. First of all Don hit it all on the head as he ussually does.
I personally have found , as mainly a rifle hunter myself but guiding bow hunters that more often then not bow hunters as slightly better ethics in the field then average rifle hunters, i think the reason being is they are alot more concerned with critical shot placements and cleaner kills. This is no slam to any rifle hunter, and those bow hunters that come back are often have the same fieldcraft and concerns during rifle season as they had during bow season and are a pleasure to guide for and hunt with. Remeber this is a general observation only.
As for meat hunting.. when i was growing up on a very remote ranch we certainly suplimented out beef with wild game, if it came down to just MEAT we could literally step out the back door and have meat. Now, if you really want to break it down this day even with high meat costs we have now, by time you take the day off that one COULD be working,all costs, gas, equipment ect your definitly NOT saving money by hunting for your food when that day you took off could give you a gareentee harvest of food at the grocery store. If i have to i will break down costs compared to meat but common sense shouldnt require it.
I am often asked why there is less trophy game, for instance take Mule deer then in the mid 1960`s. Several reasons here, one is habitat or loss there of, another big one is TAKEING IMMAUTE BUCKS, plain and simple conservation. If you want meat shoot a doe, they are just as tender even a old one, if your isnt, youd not prepping them right. This allows the good genetics to grow to atleast 5 years old, then take them out of the herd, most and i garrentee most hunters dont know the differance between a 3 year old and a 6 year old in the field. We have a huge over abundance of does and it amazes me when a "meat hunter" refuses to take them. Case in point, there is a very real reason why many bucktags revert to doe tags in late season, it isnt just to give a longer season, its a tool to try to get more does taken out, hence allowing more room for bucks and hopelly for bucks to mature.
Another point i like to touch on is the lack of knowledge about a trophy hunter, trohpy hunter hunt for the exsperiance, not for horns, horns are the by product of a hell of alot of hard work time and effort, even though i may complain about the odd hunter i have to tote up a hill, they all hunt VERY VERY hard and are far more willing to go home with nothing then take what they dont want which maybe say, 180 B&C minimum. There are so few of those types of bucks, they know it and more often then not go away empty in meat but not in exsperiance. Its a very ethical way to hunt. Never is any meat not left either, another myth i have heard that flat pisses me off ITS ILLEGAL! Obviosuly they never seen me pack a elk out for 2 days on my back or maybe i imagined it the ibuphrophin every year. haha
As for the rest, well we as hunters and sportsman should try as best we can to have good taste in our harvesting of game. It turns off people on the fence less if we dont have blood running down the side of a truck, well i had my game, no, but there is decent tatse in all things. We need ALL the help we can get to preserve our outdoors and our hunting heritage and must hold ourselves accountable first before others accountability.
Bustking, this is for you directly to your original post, you cannot in anyway fault OTHERS for wanting to hunt or doing so. Its thier right as much as yours. It would be like me saying, hey you dont live in montana, you have no right to come HERE to hunt. Doesnt matter if you own land or not here. I personally use it to my advantage and dont mind pressure hunting.
Anyhow thats my 2 cents that prolly isnt worht that

[littlebuf]

you better stay out of the wood's unless you want to get shot by some drunk riffle hunter" .

funny ::-k i was in a very crowded area opening weekend ( filled my tag bye the way knowing where to get away from everybody) and i found that all the hunters in that crowded area were very respectfull and safety oriented, i was even offered help loading my deer. man those rifle hunters how could they :roll: youve got a lot to learn about the hunting community you proclaim to be a part of bust

[bustbigking]

Just to set thing's straight, Im not a riffle hunter hater. I watch riffle hunting shows on tv and some times enjoy them. "Some Times". And I have alot of good buddy's that riffle hunt. I am trying to get the point accross that we as hunter's need to step up and realize the ever growing number of un educated hunter's. Like Romey say's, bow hunter's seem to have better ethic's than most riffle hunter's. It's true. Im not just saying that cause i'm a bow hunter im saying it cause it's a no brainer. Romey has some good points. As for the MEAT HUNTER out there saying he only is hunting because he want's to eat. Well I have been eating my Deer, Elk and Bear all from this year and last year every day almost. I alway's am hunting for meat. But that does not steer me from taking the respectible animal's. I shot a 4 1/2 year old mule deer, a close to 300lb black bear and, a spike elk. All of wich are for good managment and great meat in the freezer. So Dont try and tell me that your 90lb black bear and your spike deer is just for meat and it's fine cause it's not. It's not ok in the un writen book of ethics. I like most other ethical riffle/ bow hunter's care about my future in hunting and the well being of our local game. So don't get all offensive and think i'm just out to attack riffle hunters. That being said. I would like to apologize to anyone who may be an ethical hunter that might have thought different. I want everyone to teach people that have no clue about this kind of thing and get hunters more educated in ethics and purpose.

Post edited by Don.

Lets keep it down a bit. That means no name calling!

[Nugents Bullet]

guys this thread of posts is getting no where and quick. bigbustking has his own ideas of what needs to be done and what is actually happening, just as we all have ours so lets not try to persuade each other into our own oppinions. that's what makes everyone unique, bigbustking may have a idea that I never thought of or an oppinion for that matter. and thats whats awesome about oppinions is that no one can tell you your own oppinion. im a rifle hunter for sure and always will be but i understand game conservation and the circle of life too. yes i just did a lion king quote. i mean i took an awesome 4 point mule deer earlier this october which i posted about with a pic. that deer was 300+ yards out but i got him in one shot. and why did i mention that are you asking, because i took time to learn my rifle to where its almost second nature for me to guess ranges and be deadly accurate. which alot of rifle hunters dont do, which leads to a deer or other animal being shot 50 times like bigbustking was mentioning. so do i think more rifle hunters should be more educated then they are. yes i do. its like Ted Nugent said who is my hero by the way " it is a irresponsibility for an american to not carry a handgun and protect him or herself, and foremost not to learn the action, weight, how many pounds of force to pull the trigger, the accuracy and so forth of the gun." however people will be people and they will do what they want no matter what. so i guess you just have to let them be. unless their poachers, then turn them in. :[-X

[rezhunter]

You guys are poo poo heads!!! What you think about that one Don, too extreme for ya? hahaha