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cowgal · Joined: 10 Mar 2002 Posts: 980 Location: Colorado

If Obama should win this November, I don't believe Obama's mantra of "change" will get this country back on track. If anything, we'll have higher taxes and more hardship. So he's promising a $1000 tax break for folks below the $42,000 income level. Big deal. Who's pocket will that come out of? Its no more than a bandaid, like the stimulus checks we received this summer. It doesn't solve anything.

Here's a piece on Obamanomics that should be enlightening as to how we're going to be hit with higher taxes, not lower.
http://online.wsj.com/article/.....07961.html

Here's an op-ed piece with a chart showing you exactly what Obama proposes for taxes:
http://online.wsj.com/article/.....91427.html
Guess what? they're higher, not lower!
http://online.wsj.com/article/.....15585.html

So the way I see it, if Obama wins I'll probably be better off on welfare than working my butt off.

civetcat · Joined: 29 Jul 2008 Posts: 318

Dear Ms Cowgal,

I'm glad that you are interested in tax policy. I'd suggest however that to cut through the partisan chaf you read and site non partisan sources, otherwise you have no idea where your numbers come from or if they are even true! I found so many obvious discrepancies and ommisions in the opinion pieces that rather than respond I'd just suggest you do some more reading. If I were to link to many opinion pieces from the left you probably would have some scepticism also. Lets agree to use non partisan sources for technical dsicussions of economicsshall we?

http://taxpolicycenter.org/pub.....?ID=411750

Whelland · Joined: 16 Jan 2007 Posts: 511 Location: Kingston, MI

So the Wall Street Journal is partisan?

McCain's plan still shows a bigger reduction in taxes, while Barack Hussein Obama's plan shows a redistribution of wealth. Why should I work harder to benefit someone else?

civetcat · Joined: 29 Jul 2008 Posts: 318

>>So the Wall Street Journal is partisan?
Do you even know who owns it, or who Paul Gigot is?

Well you probably already have been working harder to support someone else, it's just that that someone already is mega rich. If you look at the stats you will see who gets what tax break. Go to the full report it's not that long or that confusing.

http://taxpolicycenter.org/Upl.....ummary.pdf

I don't think we need a tax break for anyone, just higher wages, and a paying off of the debt. Obama's plan wreaks less havoc on the debt, and reduces the tax burden on all quintiles, so does the McCain plan. Go to the chart down the very bottom. The big difference is in the very top 1%, the folks making millions per year of income. McCain would give them big tax breaks and Obama would tax them heavier.

SoCoKHntr · Joined: 18 Dec 2006 Posts: 697 Location: Pueblo Colorado

cowgal wrote: If Obama should win this November, I don't believe Obama's mantra of "change" will get this country back on track. If anything, we'll have higher taxes and more hardship. So he's promising a $1000 tax break for folks below the $42,000 income level. Big deal. Who's pocket will that come out of? Its no more than a bandaid, like the stimulus checks we received this summer. It doesn't solve anything.

Here's a piece on Obamanomics that should be enlightening as to how we're going to be hit with higher taxes, not lower.
http://online.wsj.com/article/.....07961.html

Here's an op-ed piece with a chart showing you exactly what Obama proposes for taxes:
http://online.wsj.com/article/.....91427.html
Guess what? they're higher, not lower!
http://online.wsj.com/article/.....15585.html

So the way I see it, if Obama wins I'll probably be better off on welfare than working my butt off.

Cowgal, so I can be even more convinced can you next post material from Bill Kristol, and then maybe some sean hannity, and follow it with some insight from that author Jerome Corsi who wrote that smear book on Obama?

Thanks! :laugh:

C'mon there gal! You know this, as civetcat pointed out, is a highly biased source and will paint a doomsday picture of Obama policy because, well because they don't want him to win. Duh.

cowgal · Joined: 10 Mar 2002 Posts: 980 Location: Colorado

First off, I consider the WSJ a reliable source of information. I knew the one piece was a transcript of an interview and the other was indeed an op-ed piece. However, I tried hard to find some numbers on Obama's official web site and all I could find is the following: http://www.barackobama.com/issues/economy/

Sure he talks about various tax breaks for certain segments of our population. Lets start at the very top, the tax rebates for American workers. It comes with a $20 billion price tag. What workers? and who's going to pay?

Then lets move on to the next 3 items in his list, each comes with a $10 billion price tag. Then his list continues on with more tax breaks.

So you're going to tell me that all these wonderful breaks are going to materialize out of thin air and no one is going to pay? Get real and smell the coffee. Its as Whelland stated, Obama's grand plan is a redistribution of wealth. I personally feel I already pay too much in taxes, why in the world would I vote for someone that is going to tax me even more?

SoCo, I do believe that Obama's plan paints a doomsday picture for small businesses and households with 2 wage earners. You add his economic plans to his other ideas and its not a pretty picture at all.

SoCoKHntr · Joined: 18 Dec 2006 Posts: 697 Location: Pueblo Colorado

How have you been doing the last four years in regard to taxes? You said you are already taxed enough, were you taxed quite a bit under a republican controlled congress?

cowgal · Joined: 10 Mar 2002 Posts: 980 Location: Colorado

SoCoKHntr wrote: How have you been doing the last four years in regard to taxes? You said you are already taxed enough, were you taxed quite a bit under a republican controlled congress?

You're missing the point. I don't want to be taxed EVEN MORE! I'm doing fine, my family is doing fine. We pay plenty in taxes already.

Have you read Obama's economic plan? You still haven't told me where the money is coming from for his tax breaks and supposed tax relief? Admit it, its a redistribution of weath that he's after.

SoCoKHntr · Joined: 18 Dec 2006 Posts: 697 Location: Pueblo Colorado

cowgal wrote: SoCoKHntr wrote: How have you been doing the last four years in regard to taxes? You said you are already taxed enough, were you taxed quite a bit under a republican controlled congress?

You're missing the point. I don't want to be taxed EVEN MORE! I'm doing fine, my family is doing fine. We pay plenty in taxes already.

Have you read Obama's economic plan? You still haven't told me where the money is coming from for his tax breaks and supposed tax relief? Admit it, its a redistribution of weath that he's after.

I understand the point and just wanted a comparison as to the scenario you believe would befall you if Obama is elected. The money is coming from ending tax breaks for people who are pulling in more then 250,000 per year and I guess you and your family run a business where you are making that kind of dough and thus would be harmed in regard to taxes if Obama is elected.

Me and my wife have a combined income of about 80,000 annually give or take and thus we will benefit from the tax breaks he proposes. I can understand if you fall in the income area I guessed your position, I hope you can understand mine.

cowgal · Joined: 10 Mar 2002 Posts: 980 Location: Colorado

SoCo you're incorrect with your assumptions. I'm firmly in the middles class, along with the majority of folks.

Anyone in middle class and on up will be more heavily taxed. Even the poor if they have small investments will be more heavily taxed on their profits. Or how about the increase in fuel taxes? That affects everyone, from poor to rich. And the list could go on & on... but I've got to get back to work now. ::neener:

SoCoKHntr · Joined: 18 Dec 2006 Posts: 697 Location: Pueblo Colorado

cowgal wrote: SoCo you're incorrect with your assumptions. I'm firmly in the middles class, along with the majority of folks.

Anyone in middle class and on up will be more heavily taxed. Even the poor if they have small investments will be more heavily taxed on their profits. Or how about the increase in fuel taxes? That affects everyone, from poor to rich. And the list could go on & on... but I've got to get back to work now. ::neener:

Allrighty, talk at ya later. :D

cowgal · Joined: 10 Mar 2002 Posts: 980 Location: Colorado

Civetcat, if the information on the links you provided is accurate, then I still prefer McCain's plan to Obama's. Even though, I'm not totally thrilled with either one. The part that is most disturbing is the increase in the deficit. Government spending needs to be curbed very sharply and I don't see the democrats doing that.

csumerall · Joined: 26 Aug 2007 Posts: 584 Location: Eatonville, Wa

I seriously believe that if a news outlet puts out anything that could be taken as criticism of the great one must be a conservative publication. The Wall Street Journal is a financial publication and is going to publish articles that have to do with money. Obama will impact the economy, flash back to all the great things carter did with the economy. And I checked out the tax policy center, while I cant prove it, reading a number of articles it does seem to skew heavily to the left.

civetcat · Joined: 29 Jul 2008 Posts: 318

I totally agree Ms. Cowgal. About both plans being irresponsible that is. They are giving us tax breaks on borrowed money. Buying us off if you will. You, and I, and Soco, and our children will be the ones paying this debt off.

Bush's dad, and then Bill Clinton both raised taxes to pay off the debt. Bush the senior lost an election for his troubles, he was paying for the fiscal irresponsibility of Reagan, and Clinton lost control of congress for his troubles. I believe it did have a lot to do with the long run of prosperity in the 90s, and I credit both of them. (Bush the senior and Ford probably the two most underated recent repub presidents in my opinion)

Tax laws change, and how they change affects who pays and who doesn't. Current tax law taxes business and investment at a very low rate. I pay at a much smaller percentage of my income than my employees. Remember we are talking about the full gamut of taxes. gasoline, real estate, capital gains, social security / medicare, sales tax, estate tax, income, and all the rest.

I listened to Paul Gigot on the news hour, his job before being the opinion page editor at the Journal. A lot of people left when Murdoch bought the Journal feeling he would do the same thing he has done to every other paper he has bought. There are still some great writers and journalists at the journal, but a lot of writing that should be spiked makes it through.

The source I quoted should be good. The congretional budget office also but watch out, they often give best, worst, and in the middle scenario, and people quote the one they like. Notice the separate graph far right on the bottom for the top 1% and the top point O one percent. I think we're talking high eight figures.

PS. Obamas plan grows the deficit the least. If you scroll down to the very bottom you can see how well you would do depending on which quintile you are in. Obama is willing to bribe you more while running up the deficit less, assuming you are in the second, third or fourth quintile. Obama would increase debt 3.5 trillion, and McCain 5 trillion. A trillion here and a trillion there, pretty soon we're talking real money.

Time to put the kids to bed.

civetcat · Joined: 29 Jul 2008 Posts: 318

Wikipedia Tax Policy Center
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_Policy_Center