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[Don Fischer]

I called Mr. Lutz today and talked with him about this eastern Cougar thing. He was a very nice man and talked mostly of the cougar and evidence it exists. I think it probally does to some degree but question why with no hunting and breeding couples around, they weren't multiplying. I didn't get a good answer to that. He is also sure that Panthers and lepoards exist in the eastern states, that I doubt unless they are pet's that were turned loose or escaped.

I was told that they have recorded 7 findings of eastern cougar carcasse's but yet the state's refuse to recognize the existence. The states claim that the cougars there are one's that arrived from western states. Mr Lutz also thinks the Black Panther and the eastern cougar are the same animal with color differences. I doubt that.

It was a plesant talk but Mr Lutz also said something that's a give-away on his agenda. When asked about what he'd like to see happen if it could be proved that the eastern cougar is a seperate species, which he say's is on the endangered speices list(?), he told me how some woodpecker on the list was found and the government eliminated all hunting where the woodpecker lived. I suspect that should his organization succede, the next step would be to eliminate all hunting in the eastern cougars range. Which according to him is most of the east.

Mr Lutz, if you read this, I'd sure invite you to come back and respond. Perhaps You could clear up some miss-understanding here. I believe this is a poorly disguised attempt to stop all hunting in the east.

I asked him about the proof of the sighting in Nova Scotia (did I spell that right?) and he told me he doeesn't have the paperwork to show it now. Well, I guess it wasn't worth mentioning was it?

[AustinCo]

Don,
I've been following the thread and want to tell you thanks for making that call. Seems the wolf in sheeps clothing should have posted under the predator forum. This forum should be an area to exchange ideas...not further an agenda.

[knapp717]

Can I say Great job!! :thumbsup1:

[StruttinAnRuttin]

Quote: I am also NOT a hunter, but have NO problems with hunters especially if they kill deer or other animals for food, not just trophies or for bragging about their capabilities in hunting..
We also support giving weapons to the 4 legged animals, so they could shoot back at their 2-legged predators and make it an even match.....
I have a young doe that hangs in the woods to rear of my West Virginia home....and I fully protect her from 2 legged predators. Although a totally wild deer, we have made an agreement & regularly discuss life as a deer and as a person. I supply her with plenty of apples & corn, so we have a mutual agreement that she is safe as long as she hangs out on my property.
My native american uncle taught me many moons ago, how to talk with animals.....so you will not fear them.


hmm, this statement really grabbed my attention from the "trackincats" thread below this one. Don, this statement may be a dead giveaway to a hidden agenda as well...... :[-X

[John A. Lutz]

As General McArthur said, "I have returned"!!

In regard to cougars being documented in Nova Scotia, there is considerable evidence to support this fact...
There were multiple sightings of the big cats in & around Kejimkujik National Park from the 1940s thru 2003, when research assistant Peter Beaker had several tracks confirmed.
Additional reports have come from Cape Brenton National Park in 1999, when the Mus. of Natural Resources confirmed tracks by Jean Laurean, who has conducted several field studies as a wildlife documentary project. From the 1940s to 1987 over 350 sightings were reported by qualified witnesses.
Furbearers & upland game project reports cougar documentation in 2003 after tracks visually identified as cougar were found. At about same time, scat was collected & verified by a biodiversity species risk project now underway, according to a report sent to the Eastern Puma Research Network. Track records alone were not the only means of consideration.

What began as a small band of Cougars in the late 1800s has increased to a sizeable number thru visual reports that include possibly a few black ones according to the furbearers reports.
Melanism in big cats are rare, but do occur as reported by Robinson in 1976 & 1978 and has been documented in killed cougars in Colorado according to Barnes. Over 1,115 reports have been reported in Nova Scotia since 1960.

As for the Eastern Puma Research Network having an agenda, is FALSE.
The Arkansas woodpeacker was used as an example to what federal wildlife officials could do, if states would acknowledge the documented evidence of the big cats already in the eastern U.S.
We (EPRN) have Nothing against any type of game hunting......as long as it is for food supply and NOT just for trophies. DNR officers have told us of finding 1,000s of dead animals, many NOT game animals, who have been illegally killed for trophies. The Eastern Puma Research Network fully supports the effors of game conservation officers & occasionnally ride with them to help enforce laws.
I believe we have the right to protect any animal on our property & we do so against hunters or anyone carrying a weapon. That applies to deer, rabbit and Henry, who sleeps in the closet most of the time. Henry was brought to us at night by a retired WV conservation officer, who found him in a tree on their Shenadoah Mtn property.

[Hammer1]

John A Lutz wrote:

In regard to cougars being documented in Nova Scotia, there is considerable evidence to support this fact...
There were multiple sightings of the big cats in & around Kejimkujik National Park from the 1940s thru 2003, when research assistant Peter Beaker had several tracks confirmed.
Additional reports have come from Cape Brenton National Park in 1999, when the Mus. of Natural Resources confirmed tracks by Jean Laurean, who has conducted several field studies as a wildlife documentary project. From the 1940s to 1987 over 350 sightings were reported by qualified witnesses. (end quote)

Not so quickly Mr Lutz You mention "considerable evidence to support this FACT
and "several tracks confirmed" Now considering the the Dept of Natural Resources Nova Scotia and the Canadian Wildlife service have none of this "evidence" and you were given ample opportunity to provide it.
In an email from you(I can post it if you wish) you said that you would find the info on the "Nova Scotia cougar confirmation" when you got time as it wasn't that important(I'm paraphrasing here)
I would think it would be of grave importance since Nova Scotia is the most eastern province accessable by land and if cougar existed here there could be an assumption that they would exist in New brunwick, bordering on Maine.
Now do you want that email posted????????

[Don Fischer]

John,

It was a plesant visit with you on the phone but there are several thing's that make me think you have an adgenda. You asked for assistence but also asked thar we leave our W.M.D.'s at home. Anti gun people refer to firearms as weapons of mass distruction. You think hunting for food or to protect our property is acceptable but many anti group's claim hunting for food is not needed as our welfare state has grown so. I asked you about sport hunting as a means of controling numbers and you never answered; well I guess you did. I don't know anybody that hunt's cougar for food! Your reply about the woodpecker was a give away to me.

I do give you credit, you have had the gut's to come on a hunting site and make your case, most anti's simply stop in the call name's or make lewd post's and leave. Now if you would like to see the impoundment in Oregon I told you about, come on out, I'll take you and pay your way in. I think such an impoundment would benefit a lot of animals, not just the cougar. But I'm not buying the anti hunting that is seeping out. I can assure you that hunter's and even fishermen have done much more for the cougar and the woodpecker than any group of people wishing to stop hunting. Indeed, they have done more than all the group's together!

Now, our good friend Hammer await's the information he requested a number of day's ago but is as yet no where to be found!

[dpmule]

:thumbsup1: Don

Sometime ago I sent Mr Lutz an e-mail concerning a cougar sighting in W.VA that was passed onto me by distant relative and I made comments about hunting them here in idaho and I never had the decency of a reply.
I wondered then about him, but I'm glad you could put it into words for us.

Cougars are common here in the upper snake river country and are a predator that needs managed by hunting and also by trapping if the need exists.

[John A. Lutz]

In response to Nov 20th post from Don.....on Idaho cougars.

I have a sister in northern Idaho, who sends us little notes when sightings are mentioned. Otherwise, I have little else data on and am NOT interested in the western mountain lions.
Our specialty is the native big cats east of the Mississippi River, which are smaller, less aggressive & very fearful of people, unless they are the ones released by individuals or wildlife agencies to help in controling deer herds..

A Quebec zoologist recently joined our network and has supplied us with new data on native cougars that have managed to survive and increase slightly across northern & central Quebec. She believes some of this population has moved south into Maine, New Hampshire & Vermont and is positive they are of the native sub-species to have populated eastern Canadian Wilderness since the Great Spirit placed them there centuries ago.
Since Monday, Nov 20th, data has come from 27 individuals, 1/2 are hunters who reported cougar observations in 5 eastern states. One was a police officer who sighted a cougar thru his rifle scope for several minutes, while a puma slowly picked its way across a stream & jumped a 15 foot high bank.

Several law enforcement members are planning field projects for sign in southern Pennsylvania over the next 4 months. We will keep this forum advised....and do ask you to please notify us with GPS locations, if or when partially or fully covered dead deer are found in any eastern woods or forest.

We sincerely thank you for your anticipated cooperation in advance,
John A. Lutz of the Eastern Puma Research Network

[dpmule]

Last check I made W.VA (West Virginia) was east of the big muddy, and if any of these cats were illegally released, then they would not be a native cat therefore not protected, thus should be eliminated from the gene pool before they can produce a subspecie not native to the area.

So it still stands that cougars are a predator that needs managed by hunting and also by trapping when and if the need exists.

[WAcoyotehunter]

John Lutz said-

"unless they are the ones released by individuals or wildlife agencies to help in controling deer herds.."

We should give up on the idea of agencies "secretly" releasing cougars to control deer populations. That's why the agencies you mention manage the hunters. If they were releasing the cats they would protect them!
Do you have any evidence of a secret release?

[Abaco]

You know, as I read this thread in more detail, these "reports" and "evidence" of the cougar back east sound just like the evidence we have out here in the west for Bigfoot. Makes me laugh. My brother made a horror movie spoof about Bigfoot when we were in high school so it's close to my heart.

First off, no policies should be made based on the evidence I'm hearing about on this thread. Also, we have plenty of hunting in the west and plenty of cougars so I don't even know why there'd be any discussion of a hunting ban back east.

If you've got cougars back east and have about as much evidence on them as we do about Bigfoot, consider yourself lucky.

[jonesy]

Edited version--> No evidence, no proof!!

[ndemiter]

when i was younger, one day i was out riding our horse, pursuing one of our calves that escaped, i happened accross a track in the snow. a cougar track, my curiosity compelled me to follow the track. i followed and observed where the large cat had scratched the side of a tree. a few moments later, i saw what i truly did not expect. the owner of the cougar walking through my woods carrying a 22-250.

i had a conversation with the man and he explained to me that this male "pet" cougar has been quite troublesome, and his efforts to tranquelize it had failed. so the animal needed to be terminated this time... it was his "third strike" the cougar proceeded to follow on the tracks of my calf, and after a short amount of time, both of our animals had been found, luckily in two different places.

that cougar was killed for the protection of the rural ohio residents. but had it not been found, it would have lived pleasantly on the carcasses of calves, and other livestock, god willing, not on the bodies of children or those of feeble stature. this world needs a ballance, for every man who claims that hunting is one of the most vile and barbaric actions that humanity particpates in, there needs to be one of us two whip his ***.

[jonesy]

truth is, they are out there, probably in more numbers then there "protectors" want us to believe. I've come across some really big kitty tracks while out hunting, not sure exactly what made them, but... They are out there. I'm waiting to come across one :yes: :thumbsup1: . All in due time .