BigGameHunt.net Hunting Forums

[gittrdone]

numbnutz wrote: I just have to know why you need a dog to hunt deer? I live in oregon where you cannot use dogs for anything besides birds. i feel that there is no sport in haveing a dog do all the work and running for you. i can see useing dogs for game like bear, cougar and such but for deer? to me it just seems like if you have to use a dog you have no actual hunting skills. like i said out here we cant even use them for bear or cougar anymore but we still manage to harvest them. as for deer i have had no problem shooting my fill every year useing my skills. to me it lazy to use dogs and not even hunting.

IT'S THE EASY WAY TO HUNT. MANY OF THEM DO NOT HAVE THE SKILLS TO BEAT A MATURE BUCK 1 ON 1, EXCEPT TO SHOOT IT OUT OF THE TRUCK WINDOW OR WITH DOGS CHASING IT.

[Hokieman]

I don't agree with everything you said. There is top notch houndsman out here who has gotten a bad rap because of the bad apples, just like spotlighters and roadhunters has given every hunter a bad name. we are all sportsman time is nearing for everyone to support all hunting and work together or your way of hunting may be next on the chopping block.

[georgia girl]

I as an avid still hunter AND dog hunter am completely ashamed of all of you! WE as well as our fishermen, need to stand together. There are many types of hunting I do not totally agree with, BUT I would never appoint myself as anyones judge!! as long as game is legally taken who has the right? ethics belong to the hunter. the hunt belongs to the hunter. for my fellow dog hunters, please be respectful and ethical, even if the respect is not returned. and for my fellow still hunters, please be aware that that ALL hunting is being jeopardized, deer- dog hunting is just a stepping stone, If dog hunting is done away with, please know that still hunting will be next!!!!, and fishing to follow.
I would like you all to know there is no right way to hunt. That my friends is up to the hunter.

[JTapia]

Welcome to BGH georgia girl.

Very good post and very well spoken....so to speak.

[Hokieman]

Hunting-dog owners try to keep opponents at bay
By STEVE SZKOTAK – 1 day ago

RICHMOND, Va. (AP) — In a state considered the American birthplace of hunting with hounds, George Washington's favorite sport has become a target for some Virginia landowners who say baying dogs and their owners are trampling property rights.

Even other hunters object to a Virginia right-to-retrieve law viewed as the most absolute in the nation: Hunters have free reign to chase after dogs that stray onto posted private property.

Proponents are rising to protect their right to hunt, mindful that other Southern states have already limited or eliminated certain forms of the sport because of complaints from property owners.

Courtly fox hunters and down-home bear and coon hunters — an unlikely coalition — contend their heritage is at stake.

"If we have a major defeat in Virginia, I think it would hurt hunting with hounds in every state. Therefore, we will fight it at every turn," vowed Kirby Burch of the Virginia Hunting Dog Alliance, an umbrella group for 450 hunt clubs claiming more than 30,000 members.

A big part of the friction involves loss of rural habitat due to development. In Virginia, land is being developed at more than three times the rate of population growth, according to "Hunting with Hounds in Virginia: A Way Forward," a state-commissioned report.

The upshot: More dogs are running on private lands, riling property owners.

Forms of hound hunting have been banned from Washington state to Massachusetts, and Southern states have followed suit — in part because of opposition from animal-rights groups, but also from landowners. Texas banned hunting deer with dogs in 1990, and Alabama, Georgia and Florida more recently have restricted the sport.

Those actions have prompted officials to examine the sport in Virginia, where approximately 180,000 hunters use dogs. Game officials here say they hope to deal with the issue before problems mount.

Some hunters say the criticism comes from outsiders unfamiliar with the sport's heritage, but that's not always the case.

"An awful lot of what we consider 'new people' are sons and daughters of Virginia but don't have the tradition of the land," said Rick Busch, assistant director of the wildlife division of the state Department of Game and Inland Fisheries. "It's not necessarily Yankees piling into our Southern states."

Hunting with hounds in Virginia dates nearly 400 years ago to the founding of Jamestown, America's first permanent English settlement. Dogs are used to hunt bears, deer, fox, raccoons and rabbits.

Washington and Thomas Jefferson were among its earliest enthusiasts. Congressman John Randolph, who represented Virginia in the early 19th century, was known to enter the House of Representatives with a pack of hounds at his heels. The sport flourished among the Southern plantation culture and spread to Appalachia with Scots-Irish immigrants.

That was back when the same land supported far fewer people. Hunting enthusiasts and opponents alike wonder whether there's still enough room for the specially bred, high-priced dogs to run.

On Oct. 23, the Board of Game and Inland Fisheries is to consider proposals that seem to satisfy neither side. The proposals do not, for instance, recommend changes to the right-to-retrieve law, disappointing property owners like Ben Jones.

He became so weary of hunters traipsing after their dogs on his 165 acres about 40 miles southwest of Richmond that he billed the state $4,750. The bill was ignored.

"The Constitution says government can't take property from the private sector and place it in the public sector without JUST COMPENSATION to the property owner," Jones, a self-employed contractor, wrote in an e-mail to The Associated Press.

The dog retrieval law is especially contentious when it comes to hunting deer, because such hunts can cover thousands of acres. Wildlife biologist Ben Fulton, a member of a state advisory committee that has studied hunting with hounds, said deer hunters with dogs disturb his own hunts on his 200 acres in Cumberland County. The right-to-retrieve law, he said, is an open invitation.

"All you have to do is go on somebody's property and just say, 'I'm looking for my dog,'" Fulton said. "I would like to see the law changed to where they had to gain permission."

Burch, of the Hunting Dog Alliance, said that alternative surely would be more irritating.

"Do you want me knocking on your door at 3 a.m. in the morning and saying I want my dog? C'mon," Burch said.

David Birdsall, 68, lives on a 500-acre farm in Gloucester County and has hunted deer since the 1960s. He also shows his Black and Tan Coonhounds.

"To hear these dogs run and chase is what it's all about," said Birdsall, a retired veterinarian.

When he hunts these days, he moves up Virginia's Middle Peninsula near Chesapeake Bay to a less populated county.

A little common courtesy, he said, goes a long way.

On the Net:
Virginia Department of Game and Inland Fisheries: http://www.dgif.virginia.gov/
Virginia Hunting Dog Alliance: http://www.vahda.org/

[Lone Predator]

I don't hunt with dogs, but I don't support a ban on dog hunting either. I think it's a lazy, stupid way to hunt, but that's just my opinion. I don't have the right to tell you how to hunt.

But I do have the right to tell you to and your dogs stay off both my land and the land I have permission to hunt. Unfortunately, the Commonwealth of Virginia disagrees. "Hunters...may go upon prohibited lands to retrieve their dogs," is what it says on page 11 of the hunting regulations book. But on the same page it also says: "Landowners are under no obligation to allow hunters to retrieve game from their land. Think about this before taking the shot." The fact that these two conflicting regulations exist is proof that emotion, not common sense is what is driving the game laws.

Y'all need to let go of the attitude of "it's a tradition and it's my right," and ask yourself this question: "What does it look like to all those rich taxpayers when they go shopping the day after Thanksgiving and see a dozen rednecks flying up and down the road, jumping out, and standing beside a public highway with shotguns in their hands?" You may say you don't care what those people think. But keep this in mind: the rich yuppie homeowners have the money and political power, not us. Unless all of us, dog hunters and still hunters, band together and clean up our image, dog hunting is going to be banned whether we like it or not. And other forms of hunting won't be far behind.

[Hokieman]

http://www.fauquier.com/letter/535/





Smear tactics
Jessica R. Swan

2008-10-21 10:43:01

Smear tactics

The Virginia Department of Game and Inland Fisheries recently completed its "Hunting with Hounds" Study.

Several people have been busy using the media as a bully pulpit, misrepresenting the purpose and issues, as well as making inaccurate statements regarding property rights and hunting.

They want to frighten you into believing that government is taking away your property rights, forcing you to allow ATV’s and recreation on your land, that all hunters are criminals, those that use dogs abuse or neglect them, and hunters deserve ridicule because they look or dress differently.

None of these claims is true.
It is time for facts.
There is no law permitting violation of property rights. To state otherwise is disingenuous.

Some editorials assert that 18.2-136 means a hunter's rights are superior to those of the landowner. This is a misreading of the wording and intent of the statute, as well as the state constitution.

Every state recognizes exceptions to trespass. In other states, similar laws permit farmers to retrieve loose livestock, permit retrieval of legally downed game, or permit collection of trash that has blown onto the land of another. Other states permit a person to retrieve a dog. There is nothing unusual or unconstitutional about these laws.
Exceptions to trespass involve exigencies — situations in which immediate action is required. To save a drowning child, to catch your dog that dashed out the door into your neighbor’s yard, to assist an animal in distress, to prevent an accident, to retrieve trash.

These are responsible and compassionate behavior, not criminal acts or recreation.

The exception need not be written into law to exist, though, like many other states, Virginia has a statute for one of them.

18.2-136 is an animal welfare law. It exists so a lawful hunter can immediately retrieve his hunting dog and prevent any harm to the dog, or annoyance to a landowner. The hunter must be unarmed, on foot, and must identify him or herself. Any other act is a crime.

The law is clear and is enforced, though some would have the public believe otherwise.
In Virginia, the landowner is protected from liability, and all civil remedies remain available to the landowner. No rights are infringed.

In a recent editorial, Mr. Don Marro asserted that the wildlife on his property belongs to him. He is incorrect.

In America, government holds wildlife in trust for the benefit of the public, not the wealthy elite.

Historically, wildlife was the sole property of the landowner. Since only the upper class owned land, they were the only ones that could legally hunt and fully participate in society and government.

English subjects, unable to improve their condition, became resentful of the upper classes. The class hatred exists to this day.

In the colonies, His Majesty’s policies were applied, creating discontent among colonists that resulted in the American Revolution.

Thanks to these men and women anyone can hunt in America. There is no class warfare, no "toffs,” no landed gentry. Bird watching, hiking, wildlife viewing, angling, and every form of hunting — the poor and rich are side by side as equals.

There are many peer-reviewed studies and literature on the use of dogs in hunting, hunting in general, and wildlife biology and management. The veterinary research on the care, behavior, feeding, training and welfare of the working dog is legion. Hunters gladly participate in this research and eagerly assist veterinarians and wildlife biologists. The results benefit all Americans.

The letters to the editor demonstrate ignorance of the ethics espoused by American sportsmen — by Theodore Roosevelt, Aldo Leopold, and other visionaries. Sportsmen created fair chase and modern conservation. They know what comes of unregulated, nonselective, unethical hunting.

The North American wildlife conservation model is unique. Among its tenets is that wildlife management be based in sound science, and ethical conduct is paramount.

Modern sportsmen have codes of ethics, standards of conduct, and are vociferous advocates for conservation and animal welfare. Though they comprise a small percentage of the population, they are responsible for more than 100 years of funding for restoring and protecting land and wildlife.

Not everyone understands, or is willing to accept, that a tremendous amount of effort and training is required to hunt with a dog. Hunting with a dog can be very subtle, the nuances and complexity are often unseen by those unacquainted with hunting.

Other hunters prefer different methods. Many people choose not to hunt, or disapprove of hunting. Those who use a dog, hound, or raptor merely prefer a traditional approach.

All viewpoints warrant respect, and all can be accommodated in modern society.

What is unpardonable is the jeering, mocking and denigration of beliefs and traditions.

Those who disparage rural cultures will be embarrassed to learn that the United Nations disagrees.

This fall, U.N. and researchers concluded that as traditional and rural cultures disappear, the health of the surrounding ecosystem plummets. Biodiversity is required in man and nature for either to flourish.

The U.N. is addressing this issue and asks the scientific community to reach across disciplines working together to prevent extinctions.

Chief Seattle was right. All things are connected.

It’s unfortunate that some are willing to compromise the welfare of working dogs to further their personal agenda. It is impossible to remain silent when some attempt to garner support by misleading the public and equating lawful hunters to poachers, animal abusers, or other criminals.

The truth is, the vast majority of sportsmen are decent, ethical, law-abiding citizens. They respect property rights, obey laws, and care for their dogs.

Those that disobey laws are criminals. Treat them as such. Never equate them with hunters.

As a landowner, I do not consider a hunter retrieving his hound to be a "taking" of my property rights; his retrieval demonstrates respect for my property rights, and his devotion and love for his hound.

For the thousands of ethical sportsmen, who hunt with or without hounds, thanks for your sportsmanship, ethics, and your steadfast commitment to conservation.

Jessica R. Swan
Catlett, Virginia


Fauquier Times-Democrat

[georgia girl]

Now is the time for all sportsmen to stand together(hopefully it's not to late), please stop all the bickering about dogs. We now, are all in trouble. As I'm sure you all know, Democrats control a majority of the House and Senate. Thats not very good news for any sportsman in any state. Anti-hunters and anti-dog still hunters you may just be able to get what you have been asking for, a ban on dog hunting. But be very aware, Your hunting rights will be next. Please don't be so ignorant as to think all this bantering is done by hunters, there are anti-hunters, animal rights activists, and ban wagon riders that constantly stir the pot to entice us sportsmen to argue that one type of hunting or another is best. Be very aware that dog hunting in all states is just a building block to get where they want to be... A BAN ON ALL HUNTING!!!!! Fishing will follow.
Fellow still hunters please, please don't amuse yourselves by thinking that you are part of something good by standing with these groups that are trying to take the right to dog hunt away from a fellow sportsman,by doing so you are jeopardizing all hunting rights including your own.

[VaScout]

I have heard of land owners takeing matters in to their own hands and just shooting any dog they see on their land. I may not like hound hunting for deer but i am not for this method either. Problem is there is one person near where i hunt that has over 500 dogs and he lets them run free all the time. I have also seen hunting dogs TRAINED to return to their owner on command so i can not think why you would have to go on the land of someone when you could stand at the edge and call for your dog to return. While i am on it why do you need to go looking for your deer dog at 3am as was mentioned in an earler post, i did not know you could hunt at night in VA for deer, is this a new season or an extention like they want to hunt on Sunday? When i went hog hunting with dog the dogs are outfitted with a gps traker and the owner of the dogs new right where the dogs were and they came to a whistle when he wanted them to return. just my 2 cents worth.

[Hokieman]

VaScout wrote: I have heard of land owners takeing matters in to their own hands and just shooting any dog they see on their land. I may not like hound hunting for deer but i am not for this method either. Problem is there is one person near where i hunt that has over 500 dogs and he lets them run free all the time. I have also seen hunting dogs TRAINED to return to their owner on command so i can not think why you would have to go on the land of someone when you could stand at the edge and call for your dog to return. While i am on it why do you need to go looking for your deer dog at 3am as was mentioned in an earler post, i did not know you could hunt at night in VA for deer, is this a new season or an extention like they want to hunt on Sunday? When i went hog hunting with dog the dogs are outfitted with a gps traker and the owner of the dogs new right where the dogs were and they came to a whistle when he wanted them to return. just my 2 cents worth.

Vascout - Any new legislation will effect all hunting dog owners, this just isn't about the deer hound hunters but it also effects bear hunters, coon hunters who hunt at night.

[Musky Mike1]

Fact, I get one day a week to hunt and I'm out in a quiet forest and have been stalking a nice buck for an hour. I'm just about ready to pull the trigger on him and here comes a pack of dogs and the deer runs off. Know not only does the dogs ruin my chance at a nice buck, they ruin my hunt for the rest of the day. That is the problem with running dogs for deer, they ruin anyone else’s chance to hunt. If you want to run dogs on private land, I don't care. Stop ruining my day in the woods!!!

[tesoronut]

I was raised in Southern Va., on the farm where I live now. I have owned coon dogs and deer dogs back when my health allowed me to follow them. There is nothing wrong with RESPONSIBLE implementation of hunting dogs. However, in my neighborhood, the word "responsible" doesn't exist. We have a local club that has an "in your face" attitude, and this club either owns, or has permission to hunt THOUSANDS of acres of land. I have 90. I only hunt on my property, and don't hunt on anybody else's. These dogs are strategically encroached into my woods all during the season. When one of us says anything to one of the members, the reply is always the same....."deer dogs can't read posted signs". True.......But EVERY Spring Gobbler season, these club members SNEAK into my woods and usually kill at least one turkey before I can put a stop to it. It is so bad in Lunenburg County that I put a letter in our local paper last Spring, concerning the "lack of reading" ability of these hunt club members(not just the dogs). And this group is well-known, and wants to be regarded with respect, but yet they do alot of under-handed and un-ethical things when they think nobody's looking. The problem here is simply the lack of respect of the YOUNG members of this club. The older guys have died off over the years, and the grand-children and children of these by-gone decent hunters don't give a crap whose lives they make miserable. With all this being said, I have grown from once liking deer dog hunting to hating it. So, the "blame the trans-planted yankee" thing doesn't apply to me. I was born and raised here. I'm not trying to offend anybody here, but dag-gone it, it's my opinion...... :[-X

[Musky Mike1]

That's part of what I was trying to get across in my post. Dogs don't understand where and where not to go, they just run.

[Hokieman]

RIGHT TO RETRIEVE LAW EXPLAINED

Retrieving a dog doesn't violate property rights
November 2, 2008 12:36 am



It's time for some facts about hunting with hounds.

Virginia is not the only state to recognize exceptions to trespass. All states recognize them.

In some, exceptions are codified and permit farmers to retrieve livestock, hunters to retrieve legally downed game; others permit collection of debris or retrieval of dogs. There is nothing unconstitutional.

Exceptions to trespass involve exigencies, where immediate action is required (e.g., to save a drowning child, catch your dog that dashed into your neighbor's yard, assist an animal or person in distress, or to prevent an accident).

Some call Code 18.2-136 the "right to retrieve" law. That is a misreading; it grants no right.

It is an animal-welfare law. It exists so lawful hunters may immediately retrieve dogs and prevent any harm to the dog or annoyance to a landowner. The hunter must be unarmed, on foot, and must identify himself.

Any other act is a crime. The law is clear and is enforced, though some would have the public believe otherwise.

No law permits violation of property rights. The landowner is protected from liability, and all civil remedies remain available to the landowner.

The vast majority of sportsmen are decent, ethical, law-abiding citizens. They respect property rights, obey laws, and care for their dogs. Those who disobey the law are criminals, not hunters.

A hunter retrieving his hound isn't a "taking" of my property rights; his retrieval demonstrates respect for property rights and love for his hound.

Jessica R. Swan

Fauquier


For more info Email: info@vahda.org

[tesoronut]

I have never had a problem with the "right to retrieve" law. If a coon hunter comes up to my house in the middle of the night, saying that his dogs are back here, not only will I show them how to get back there, I will let them drive and take a gun to get the coon. If a hunt club that is "semi-local" wants to go back there to get their deer dogs, the same. But the LOCAL band of mis-fits, drunks, and sneaky bastards know better than to come here and even ask. Bottom line is.....some bad apples make it hard on the good ones. There is NO solution to this problem, because you can't lump all clubs into one group when you have this situation. That's awful hard on the enforcement end of it. I just gave permission to ALL VDGIF employees to hunt this place. I want them to have a good time, and see what I have to put up with. They are willing to accept my offer. Stay tuned........ :D