BigGameHunt.net Hunting Forums

[maddenwh]

I'd like to know what rifle and cal everyone will be using, or has used, on their first big pig hunt of the year. I love talking about rifles, and I enjoy hearing different perspectives on rifles and cals.

For pigs, I'm going to try and get one with my Merkel 470 nitro express, or my remington custom shop 416 remington mag. I think feral hogs are the perfect prey for practicing with the big boys. I also just had my remington 700 mountain rifle 35 whelen re-barreled, and I just bought a new 375 H&H Winchester model 70. I'll definitely be depleting the pig population of the Texas panhandle this year, but probably not as much as I've depleted my pocket buck in preparation for the hunting season. I hope you all are as anxious as I am. :lol:

[cam69conv]

LoL Well Im guessing you aint planning on keeping any of the meat because with those weapons there wont be much left but a greazy spot!!! I mean sheesh son, a 470 nitro express???? Pigs aint elephants!!! Actually every weapon you mentioned except one, .35 whelen, is WAY overkill but to each his own.

[maddenwh]

Yeah, I know they are over kill, but pigs are really the best thing for me to practice on with my big bores. You need to practice with these puppies, and shooting deer with them isn't a good idea b/c I actually care about meat damage there. Most of these old feral hogs I shoot are just for practice and good riddance. I might take one for bacon. In that case, I'd use my .358 win, 45/70. or 7-08. ON another point, If you use solids while shooting pigs with your big bores, it really doesn't cause much meat damage at all. A lot less than would a 270 mag with a soft point. :yes:

I've kind of realized that there really aren't too many big bore nuts on this forum... you either hate 'em or you obsess over them. :thumbsup1:

[cam69conv]

Only one I have that would be concidered a "big bore" is my old faithful .444. Corelocs puts a helluva hole in them most the time. Hit one in the head once (usually dont like head shots but thats all I had) And was pretty much nothing but a lil grissle left where her head was. Did make skinnin a lil easier since I like to keep the pelts without the head skin :laugh:

[maddenwh]

I used to own a marlin 336 lever action .444. It was a great gun and a great cal., but I started reloading the 45/70 and realized that having the two guns was a littl redundant. I traded it in as a part of a deal to get my 35 Whelen rebarreled and rigged up. :D

[cam69conv]

Yeah I love my .444.... She's my goto gun. Hit a Cape Buff at 150 yards with it right behind the shoulder and retrieved the bullet in the off side skin. I was IMPRESSED to say the least. Was a preserve hunt. The guy had purchased a male and female for some rich dude that thought he would try to archery hunt them. Guy chickened out and the owner was scared his .270 would just piss the critter off :laugh: So he gave me a holler. Ill tell you this. That critter was plum mean and its mate wasnt to happy either. But you talk about some NASTY eating. That stuff was the rankest meat Id ever eaten. Even cold hung it for 14 days and it still stunk up to high heaven. But hey it didnt cost me anything so I guess I cant complain. I do love it when people say that it wouldnt be a good weapon in Africa. I just laugh when I think about how it folded up when that 200 grainer slapped it. Collapsed lungs will kill any critter on legs. I just dont feel the need for anything bigger. I mean I love to shoot but to me something like a 470 nitro just would not be pleasurable to shoot whatsoever. I personally dont like shooting something that feels like a 350 pound linebacker just ran over my shoulder. My 12 gauge slugger does enough of that when I sight it in. I take that thing to the range and I PRAY that the scope hasnt moved off any so I dont have to fire more than 2 or 3 times. The .444 isnt to bad with the sims kick pad on it. I had one that had a ported barrel but that SOB hurt me damn ears even with ear plugs!!! The one I have now is the 336 with a 26 inch barrel. With the loads I make up I hold sub MOA at 100 all day. Not to bad for a big boy lever action. I tried out the new leverevolution rounds and it performed outstandingly at the range with them but I havnt hunted with them yet. Its rare that I get a shot over 100 yards where I hunt so I dont really need the extended range they have. But the penetration/energy numbers on them look good. Seen a few tests as well and they out-penetrated all the big dog manufactures including thier own .444's so I think Ill have to whack a deer with one this year and take a looksie for meself :thumbsup1:

[maddenwh]

Let me tell you, if you killed a full grown cape buffalo with one shot from a 200 grained 444, you're a lucky fella. Personally, I think your a little dense for going after one with a .444 marlin and a 270. I don't know that I've ever talked to an African PH that would hunt one with anything less powerful than a 375 H&H mag, which absolutely outdoes a 200 grained .444. In fact, some folks thing that a 300 grained bullet at 2,600 fps isn't enough gun for cape buff. There's a reason that in most countries, the 375 is the minimum cal for hunting them. You ought to check out some African hunting videos where there are guys shooting cape Buff with a 505 Gibbs, 458 Lott, or 470 mintro 6 or 7 times before they drop; a 505 Gibbs shoots a 525 grained bullet at around 2,350 fps. I've got a video where a guy shoots one with his Gibbs 6 times, and the PH has to use his 600 nitro express o kill the thing b/c the other fella ran out of bullets.

If what you say is true, you must have hit him in the spine or something. I've heard stories where cape buff have had their hearts hacked in two by 458 Lotts and the like and still run a half mile or more afterwords. ::-k ::-k ::-k

[cam69conv]

Little anatomy lesson for you there madden,

Lung shots causes TWICE if not THREE times the shock that a heart shot does. Take the little itty bitty deer for instance. Shoot a deer in the heart with a broadhead and watch it run. Then shoot one in the lungs. You will see a faster result with the lunger. SHOCK is the key value in any weapon.

Yes I agree that the cape is a tough animal and there are some instances that they just dont go down no matter what or where you hit them with. But no matter if you hit them with 500 grains or 200 grains if you pop both the lungs you will get the same result. DEAD. They main reason they want a .375 HHmag or bigger is in case of a charge and they have some thick sculls and that power is needed to penetrate them.

Ill clue you in on a little secret. The main reason they have that minimum set so high is because of the inexperiance that many have when going to Africa on safari. Bunch of rich folks that have no real clue about hunting or shooting at live game so the extra power is felt needed. I know this to be fact. I dont have to watch a bunch of vids. I know several thats been and they have all been told that. I personally wouldnt go to Africa to hunt anyway because I no longer trophy hunt and you cant bring home the meat so it would be useless for me not to meantion that the mosquitos down there need runways to land!!! :laugh:

The .444 is a very powerful and most are extreamly accurate and all thats needed in North America. I personally would not be afraid to hunt anything anywhere with it but im an accomplished marksman and well versed on live game shooting. Would I recommend it to all? Not sure I would because some just dont have the knowledge or skill level to use it to its full potential or the paitence for the proper shot placement. But thats ANY weapon. If you look closely at those Videos that your talking about, you will see that most cases of charges are cause by poor bullet placement. News flash, you gut shoot a buck and you may get gored as well. ANY wild game is dangerous at any moment. Its when people forget that small fact that they get hurt. Ever seen a pissed off Squirrel? Them lil buggers can rip a hole in you FAST!!!

[maddenwh]

Geez... thanks for the anatomy lesson Forrest. :](*,)

I was really trying to hold my tongue after I read your "story" about your one shot kill on a cape buff with a .444 200 grained bullet. I really didn't feel it necessary to call you out on this deal because I assumed you had good intentions for writing such utter and ridiculous b.s. I would have let it be had you not had to reply with the audacity and ignorance that you did. Remember, I tried to play nice.

I believe you said that you hit him in the lungs and he immediately dropped. You really expect me, or anyone for that matter, to believe that you dropped a full grown cape buff with a lung shot from that little squirrel pellet you used? :](*,)

I'm actually dumbfounded as how to reply here... as in, I don't even know where to begin. First of all, a cape buff could take a lung shot from your .444 walk right up to you, fart in you face, and still have the wind to run across the ranch full speed just to tell his pals how ridiculous it was that some "marksman" expert thought he could even tickle a cape buff with a 200 grained bullet to the lungs.

You're right, you don't need to watch videos to know that cape buff are tough...wait a second, before I get into this, where did you get this info about lung shots being twice to three times more shocking on buff than heart shots? That might, might be true with those little white tails in your back yard (i've shot plenty and still think it might be a crap statement, but maybe you can cite some obsolete hunting guide you picked up at your local 7/ll), but we're not talking about deer.

Let's skip the video thing here, and I'll keep this short by just giving you a list of some books you can and should read. This way, I don't have to continue telling you how full of it you are, you can look it up for yourself! It's always better to learn on your own, and really, I don't need to say much more to make my point that you're story is crap, and that you don't have the first clue as to what you're talking about because it is so obvious from your posts. I'll also give you some websites that you can visit on your quest for an edumacation. You can tell your stories to some of the fellas on these sites, and we'll see if they respond as gingerly towards your outrageous claims as I have. In conclusion, if you just hadn't of been a smart arse man.

I'll list some reading and a few sites you should definitely consider looking into before proclaiming yourself an expert on cape buff anatomy. This way, you'll have a little bit better information before you come up with your next best seller.

Also, don't try and convince me you're telling the truth either, b/c it wont work. You might hve a killed a buffalo of some kind at some point, but you didn't "drop" an African Cape Buffalo with a single shot to the lunges from a 200 grained .444 marlin, and practically nothing that you tell me to the contrary will convince me otherwise... only feesible explination would be a bullet bouncing of a rib and hitting the spine of the bull, and that's about as iffy as it gets.

Books- (I've read all of these and enjoyed most of them thoroughly, I hope you will as well): "African Rifles and Cartridges" Taylor, "Death in the Long Grass", or any Capstick "Death" books, "Dangerous Game Rifles' Wieland, "Safari Rifles" Boddington, "hunting Africa's Dangerous Game" Stewart, "Hunter" Hunter, any of Ruarks books, and so on, there are many

I am not advertising for other sites on this forum. I am just mentioning a few others that I frequent and often find informative; accurate reloading forum, nitro express forum, go-on-safari.com forum

Good luck Bwana :thumbsup1: :yes:

[maddenwh]

"Ill clue you in on a little secret. The main reason they have that minimum set so high is because of the inexperiance that many have when going to Africa on safari. Bunch of rich folks that have no real clue about hunting or shooting at live game so the extra power is felt needed. I know this to be fact. I dont have to watch a bunch of vids. I know several thats been and they have all been told that. I personally wouldnt go to Africa to hunt anyway because I no longer trophy hunt and you cant bring home the meat so it would be useless for me not to meantion that the mosquitos down there need runways to land!!!"

The first time I read your response I really sort of skimmed throught his part... I already knew it was crap after reading the first sentence. I have, however, since read this paragraph, and all I can say is,"Wow!" You really don't have a clue do you pal?

How many African PH's carry .444 crap shooters? On the contrast, how many cary 458 Lotts? Do you think these professional hunters are just rich white folks that don't know how to shoot? I gues you are just a better "marksman" than they are.

Also, the reason the .375 is the min. cartridge is most countries is b/c they were concerned that if they made .400 the min cartridge, they'd have all these hunters with 375's they couldn't use and they'd have all these 375 H&H cartridges floating around that wouldn't be sold. They also made it the min cal so idiots that thoguht they could kill buff with 444 marlins wouldn't get themselves killed.
:thumbsup1:

[cam69conv]

Awwwww Madden, Did someone wake up on the pissy side of the bed this AM? #1 lil one dont call me a liar for any reason. I dont lie, cheat or steal and hate anyone that does. #2 when you have hunted 1/16th as many game animals on this planet you may speak, until then you may wish to shut up and learn a little bit. Reading books does not qualify you as knowledgable, it just shows you can read. #3 I didnt say it went straight down, I said it resulted in the same way as if you hit it with a 375H&H mag,,, DEAD.

Now if you wish to learn a little bit go read the Africa forum and see the latest posts and you may wish to shut the hell up afterwards. Guys down there with .270's hunting. OOPS didnt know they even allowed them.

I get a lil furred up when some fool calls me a damn liar because ANYONE that knows me knows damn well better.

Cape Buff, Live weight 1582 pounds, Yardage -152 yards (stepped off) Weapon -Marlin .444, Bullet- 200 grain coreloc (was before I got the dies to reload for this caliber) Damage- Straight through both lungs, Follow up shot NONE, time before it fell- about 30 seconds, actions it took before dropping- Not a damn thing except standing there spewing blood out its nose and mouth.

[redrider]

Sorry fellas but this topic won't keep going if you can't reel it back in and cut the insults and foul language.

[Whitworth]

Sorry guys, but I couldn't sit back and watch this argument anymore without commenting.

First and foremost, the minimum calibers for DG in Africa represent minimum energy requirements and bullet diameters that have been determined to capably handle large dangerous thick-skinned animals such as elephant, rhino and cape buffalo. In my hunting circles, a .375 H&H is a realtive middle weight, and not a cannon by any stretch.

Penetration is a product of a number of items, including importantly, sectional density. A minimum good SD is 300, and I can tell you that a 200 grain .429 caliber bullet has very low sectional density. A balistically challenged round like a .444 or any of the various handgun rounds, need a heavy bullet to penetrate well.

Before you attack me and call me a know-nothing, I do quite a bit of handgun hunting and handgun rounds are definitely balistically challenged. The way to get a round that is travelling at a leisurely 1400 fps to penetrate to the vitals on a tough animal like a hog, you need a heavy bullet for momentum -- not a light expanding projectile. Hence, I shoot 400 grain hardcast pills in my Casull, 320 grainers in my .44 mags, and 440 grain bullets in my .475 Linebaugh.

So, where are the photos of the buff? Would love to see them! A once-in-a lifetime trophy that comes to you like a gift would warrent photographs in my humble opinion.

Now, I'm not trying to start an argument here, and you can see that this is my first post, but I felt the need to weigh in.

Don't shoot me please! :lol:

[Whitworth]

Back to the original question -- which weapons this year. At the beginning of the year I used a .30-06 and a 12 gauge with slugs when I hunted in Bosnia. First hunt back in the States I used my .338 win mag and my .454 Casull.............

[cam69conv]

hehehe No worries Whitworth, I only attack when attacked, While I do agree with you on the sectional density of pistol bullets I do have to disagree on their usability. Many reports say that the .444 is useless against large game, yet why is it used VERY well on grizzly? Ever seen what a bullet has to get through on a grizz? And obviously it works well and holds up on thick skinned animals as MANY have attested to. People tend to overestimate the toughness of a lot of dangerous game simply because of their ferocity and tenationess. Skull penetration is absolutely the only worry id have with a .444 200 grain on any game. THATS where the sectional density would come into play. Capes dont have Kevlar for skin or steel for ribs. They are just as vulnerable to a shot as any other weapon with enough gumption to penetrate. Im not saying at ALL that the .444 is the perfect weapon for Capes but to say that someone is an idiot for using it is ludicrous and completely uneducated in its capabilities. And to flat out call someone a liar when they do not know that person at all or what their capabilities or education is is not only insulting but it shows their own ignorence. Anyone that knows a dang thing about hunting knows that bullet placement is more key to downing any animal than anything else. Can you kill a deer with a .22 short? Sure can. My great gramps used to do it all the time. Should you? NOPE for one its illegal and for 2 its not the most ethical thing in the world either. People can sit and have these arguments all day every day and still not come to the simple agreement that not everyones experiance is what the sports writers and magazine editors print. The only North American big game animal I havnt taken is a Moose and thats simply because I havnt drawn a tag yet and I refuse to pay those outragious prices on guides and such in places that you dont have to draw like Alaska. I MEAT hunt not trophy anymore. While in my younger more uneducated days I did trophy hunt and was very successful at it, It finaly sunk in, someting my great grandpappy used to say all the time, "HORNS DONT EVEN MAKE A GOOD SOUP SON". The old .444 has taken MANY large elk, 2 Grizz (back in trophy days cause ewwww @ the meat) carabou, deer, black bear, 2 mountain lions, (didnt know they were actually supposed to be good eating back then so Ill have to hunt one again to see) Lord knows what all else.

As far as Pics go Whitworth the only one I have is after skinning and the bullet retrieved from the offside skin. As I said this was on a preserve hunt a few years back not in Africa as I dont trophy hunt and he thought the meat was supposed to be good on them (boy was he WRONG ::yuk: ) Ill try to find them later on this infernal machine if they havnt pissadeard in the 2 reformats since then. Killed 3 russians while I was up there (paid fer them but dang good eatin and worth it) and had a blast!!! Lotta snow and ice and busted my dang bum HARD (embarrasing as hell with 3 old football buddies there heehawing) but was still fun. Anyway sorry folks if I came off crass on other post but I get really riled up when called a liar and aint much pee's me off worse.