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[JCalhoun]

The .300 H&H was the popular long range cartridge in 1940's-50's. It was eventually topped by the .300 win Mag and now the 6.5-284 is becoming the most common although there is currently a swing towards the heavyweight 7mm's.

[Don Fischer]

I believe that the 300H&H of the 40's and 50's was not much more, if any, than todays 30-06. Gotta think too, that these cartriges being popular is a fad thing. Seems like they just keep bouncing around.

[maddenwh]

A little off topic, but on the same point... snipers use, or at least use to, standard ole 308's. There's no super short magnumized anything there. You got to think those guys need something to rely on. In vietnam and WWII, a lot of those guys were using -06's. I really do think it is the man, first and foremost, and then the rifle and bullet type that determine accuracy.

On another thread, someone claimed that the short magnums are innately more accurate than the longer cases I think some weatherby and 375 H&H owners might have something to say about that. I'd just need empirical data to believe this,,, why aren't snipers or competitors using them if they are so much more accurate? ::-k ::-k ::-k

[JCalhoun]

Snipers use the 7.62mm NATO (.308 Win) because it is what they get issued. It was once the primary combat cartridge. It is still used as a machine gun chambering. It was untilized as a sniper round because it was already in service and the military likes to stick with things that are already in the system. Most sniper engagements take place at under 500 yards where the .308 performs well. Police engagements take place under 200 yards in most cases.

For farther out shots, the military has experimented with using the .300 Win Mag. Most European countries are now using the .338 Lapua as their standard sniper round.

As for match shooting short mags, it is gaining popularity. My barrel for next match season is a 7mm WSM.

[remington]

JC,

Well said and I agree 100%.

[maddenwh]

Yeah, snipers also shoot 50 cals too. My point was, the cops and the military wouldn't be shooting 308's still if they weren't accurate.

Some people probably do prefer the short mags during competition and otherwise, but that doesn't prove an inherint advantage in accuracy. I don't know if they do or don't shoot straighter. I'm just saying, I've never seen any proof that short mags are innately more accurate then any other round. Like Boddington's article said, there just isn't anything that significantly advantageous about them. I'll trust that he knows what he's talking about, but if someone can find me clear cut evidence that short mags are more accurate, then I'd be happy to agree.

[maddenwh]

Another good point you've made that I forgot to mention. You said that the military was experimenting with 300 win mags (I'll just assume you know what you are talking about here), and that the europeans are looking at the 338 lapua (although I did read that the 300's and 338's weren't looked too highly upon as good sniper rounds b/c some snipers were developing flinches due to the recoil). Neither are super short mags. I imagine that, for military purposes, using heavier bullets has its advantages being that they have to use full metal jackets. A 243 super mag solid may not work as well as a 300 win mag for sniping. You need bigger holes if you can't have expansion. Thus, one of the reasons the military now uses 50 cals for long range sniping.

[JCalhoun]

Sniper rifles use BTHP match ammo not full metal jackets. They did use FMJ match ammo for many years though.

As for me, the reason I went with the 7WSM for my long range target rifle is it has a powder capacity similar to the .280 Rem and 7mm Rem Mag. It is also shorter so I get a little longer bore in same length of barrel. This will give me a slight gain in velocity that won't cost me anything.

For most shooters in most situations, the short mags don't offer any advantage at all. In fact, many shooters don't even need a magnum of any kind.

[maddenwh]

Are the BTHP match bullets solid as well? I just assume they are do to international regulations.

[remington]

No they're a hollow point that serves no other purpose but external ballistics. It was specifically made for punching paper.

The British Royal Marines (some of the best snipers in the world) are curently using the 338 Lapua.

Generally police snipers use what the military uses. There are exceptions but that vast majority of police snipers are shooting the 308 or 223 (both NATO approved). Police are also pretty quick to dump something in favor of a better "man stopper" ex: 9mm to 40 cals to 45's. The 308 gets it done pretty well for the ranges we shoot.

[JCalhoun]

The current US sniper ammo uses the 175gr Sierra MatchKing loaded as the M-118LR.

There was a review of the Hague Convention, this is the one that concerns weapons, and it was determined that the BTHP match bullets are not specifically designed to be mushrooming or frangible and can be allowed on the battelfield.

[maddenwh]

Thanks, that answered my next question. :thumbsup1:

[CVC]

JCalhoun wrote: The current US sniper ammo uses the 175gr Sierra MatchKing loaded as the M-118LR.

There was a review of the Hague Convention, this is the one that concerns weapons, and it was determined that the BTHP match bullets are not specifically designed to be mushrooming or frangible and can be allowed on the battelfield.

So, there are rules on what type of bullets you can use in battle? Bullets that mushroom can't be used?

[Don Fischer]

There have been rules for a long long time. As I understood it, mushrooming bullets create to much damage. Imagine that. Just kill the enemy, don't damage him! It was to hard to repair soldiers damaged to badly by mushrooming bullets. Ain't war a civilized thing?

You have heard of the Geneva Convention? That's the one!

[remington]

The military is using regualr HP's with the war on terror. Apparently the terroists are not members of the Hauge convention. The major it of it is still plain old ball ammo tho.