BigGameHunt.net Hunting Forums

[maddenwh]

Uh, what? :](*,)

[Southernsportsman]

Having returned recently from Wyoming, I thought I would put my 2 cents in on this subject. Our group went 7 for 7 on antelope bucks with shots ranging from 50 yds. to almost 400 yds. While the 50 yard shot is probably the exception, I did not see a need for any one to have to shoot at over 500 yds. I know there are people and guns fully capable of performing at this range and even farther,the variables of elevation,wind currents, movement of the animal during bullet travel, etc. make it very difficult for the average hunter to make a clean ethical kill. I am not talking about people who train and practice for just this type of shot, these hunters are the exception not the rule (IMO). The ability to make a clean kill not just a hit on target, should be the goal and the logic behind the decision on whether or not the trigger is pulled. Here in the south where I hunt, we are seldom put in a position to have to make such a decision, but having now experienced the large open spaces out West, I can see where someone would be tempted to push their ability to make extreme long range shots.Some times that hill on the other side of the draw is a little further than you might think. I realized this when it took longer to walk across that distance than I had anticipated,I would have sworn the truck was only a 1/4 mile or so away but it took 15 minutes to get there. Any that is just my take after having been out West for the first time.

[maddenwh]

Southernsportsman- I concur, that's why I bought a range finder. I do my deer hunting in the Texas panhandle, so it can be pretty flat, but I still try not to shoot anything much past 250 that I want to keep. I've already mentioned this, but pigs, coyotes, and varmits are the exception. :yes:

[CVC]

I think a key point is knowing your limitations - both your and your equipment's.

What is that magic distance that is unethical? It depends on the hunter and their ability.

I just shot an antelope at 253 yards. Perfect shot, but I have practiced regularly and I have good equipment so it was really a "chip" shot for me. Maybe for someone else it is too long of a shot for them to take.

Would I have taken a closer shot if I could have? Definitely, but that is as close as I could get. No cover between the goat and me so why shouldn't I take that shot?

Would I take a 500 yard shot? No, because I am not confident that I can make that shot - it would be luck if I did. Now, if I knew I was going after game that required longer shots I would prepare and I might take that shot if I knew I could make it and there was absolutely no way to get closer and that might be the only chance I got on an animal.

I think long-range is a relative term. Again, it depends on the person, their ability and their equipment.

When I bow hunt, I limit myself to 30 yards. Yes, I can shoot a target farther, but I am not confident that I can make that shot consistently.

[Don Fischer]

I believe that anytime you start shooting beyond the MPBR of you equipment at game animals, Your shooting to far. Where the problem comes in is the chocie to walk away is always there, it never leaves. But to many feel they have the skills and are going to do it reguardless if they feel comfortable. Well much closer shots get flubbed by very good shooters without having to add in for bullet drop, range judgment wind drift and animal movement.

I admire thoes people that shoot well at greatly extended ranges. But hunting is about killing, not shooting a paper target or a steel gong. Hunting is a sport where success means only an animal dies, recovered or not. The world is not going to stop if a shot is passed up; and more good shooters pass up those shots than bad shooters! And of course anyone that can afford to travel to shoot an animal will not go hungry because he/she passed up a shot. If that were the case and the hunter relied on the kill for winter meat, he'd hunt closer to home and never risk a winter meat supply on a very long shot. It's sport, sport where success often means something died, usually an animal just minding it's own business.

We need to be as clean as possible! Just as I feel we should not be using lever action 30-30's to shoot animals at 300 yds, I don't think we should shoot any animal beyond the MPBR of the cartridge we're using. I would relent on that for pests, ie sage rats. A bad shot will still cleanly kill the rat with a varmit cartridge or better. As for animals like coyotes, if your out calling coyotes and 500 yds is as close as you can call it, you need to practice calling! If your a rancher shooting and often missing at those ranges, your teaching the coyote to leave at the sight of your truck. We have a lot of jumpy coyotes around here, the product of ranchers that don't shoot anywhere near as well as they think!

[JCalhoun]

I agree.

[WesternHunter]

I second that agreement. Don speaks with wisdom.

[Highflyer]

Just a thought, but sniper units around the world are discouraged from shooting at 500 yards and beyond because things become too unsure. If these professionals with specialized equipment (and a spotter to boot!) who shoot for a living are discouraged from passing the 500 yard mark, how does the average hunter have any business shooting anywhere close to that?

I know, your hear about the 1000 yard kill and on and on, but these seem to be the exception rather than the rule in the military units. Correct me if I'm wrong.

[CVC]

I think the average hunter is probably best at limiting themselves to 200 or less, but it really is an individual responsibility and limitation based on one's own capabilities.

I don't know if there is any validity to the statement that military snipers are discouraged from taking shots over 500 yards, but if true, I would assume that the same philosophy applies to sniping as it does hunting. Get as close as possible. The closer you are the higher probability of hitting your target.

I feel confident at 300 yards, but 500 ::-k On my one rifle I have the reticle that has dots for 200, 300, 400 and 500, but 500 yards with the wind blowing and other factors is an iffy shot.

Now with a rifle that just has the cross hairs there is no way I'd even think about it. The hold over is too much to accurately pin point to make the shot.

It is pretty simple for me with my 30.06 with just the cross hairs and zeroed at 200 yds. I can use the back of the animal for a reference point. Depending on the size of the animal I either put the cross hairs on the top of the back or just slightly above them.

I guess with all that said, I agree that most people should not be attempting long range shots unless they have the proper equipment and have practiced, practiced...

[JCalhoun]

It's true to an extent that military snipers try to keep shots under 500 yards. Stalking is taught as much as shooting in sniper programs and the snipers generally try to get as close as possible to the targets but still allow themselves a suitable escape.

They train and practice the long shots for just in case purposes.

[Don Fischer]

It seems to me that on every discussion, on every site where long range hunting is brought up, the military sniper is always the standard of excellence. I strongly suspect that there are many civilians that shoot every bit as well.

JC brings up a good point that is always over looked in these discussions. That being that they are taught to get as close as possible and still have an escape route. They are taught to stalk their target! The sniper that lays off 1000+ yds and scores a miss does not accomplish his mission. He's not sent out to fail.

I just wonder if the people that condone long range hunting have the same stalking skills as the snipers they keep referring to? I doubt it. It seems to me that it's much more difficult to stalk within 200- yds of an animal that it is to learn to hit it at 500+ yds. Shooting is merely a learned skill that the animal has no play in. Stalking is a skill in which the animal definitely has a play in.

I think most of us like to see ourselves as fine shots, capable of making long shots to some range. I know I do. At the same time I think that may well be because we actually have such poor stalking skills. It's easier to learn to shoot than to stalk and cartridges are there that allow the good shot to shoot well beyond the MPBR of the cartridge and still deliver a lethal blow. In fact advancement's in bullet's are extending the range even farther as is the advancement in scopes and range finders. It appears that little is being marketed to improve stealth and yet in my opinion, that is the real difference between the military sniper and the long range hunter. You may in fact be able to out shoot the sniper at long range but, he'll crawl up your butt and take the sure shot! You lose!

[CVC]

Don, as always, you make good points.

I'll admit I am a better shot than stalker. Frankly, stalking is not a skill that I practice; shooting is. Why? I guess I never really thought about it. But you are right, from what I read and the shows I've watched, stalking is a skill that military snipers hone.

As I reflect on it, whatever one's motivation is for hunting - the trophy or the hunt itself, stalking as close as possible to the animal is the key to success.

A question that I have is how close is close enough? Is it as I stated above stalking "as close as possible" or is it stalking "as close as needed?"

This past October I was in WY hunting antelope and tried a day at archery hunting. We got within 70 yards of the goats which was not close enough for a bow, but it suggested that we were capable of getting close to them.

However, when I had a rifle in my hands, I got within 253 yards of one and took the shot. Should I have stalked within 200 yards? 100 yards" or 75 yards?

I don't think in that case I could have because the goat saw me. I got to the point that I could make the shot and no farther because I didn't think it was possible with being spotted and no cover.

I believe it there was cover and the goat hadn't spotted me I would have tried to get as close as possible, but I like being able to have options.

[Highflyer]

Don, I have no doubts that there are many civilains that shoot just as well, it's just that the sniper is a good definable baseline for comparison. The simple fact of the matter is that most units require them to put at least 5 shots into a 1/2 inch at 100 yardsd plus some pretty tight longe range standards as well. I know people that can shoot well enough to qualify for any sniper unit in the world, but I don't know any that can shoot any better either. Like I said, it's something that is quantifiable. On top of defined standards, they practice A LOT - far more than any hunter out there. And that's my point, if you have these individuals who practice more than any civilian and are held to very high standards of markmanship and even they prefer to stay under the 500 hundred yard mark, then what business does the average hunter have taking excessively long shots?

[cam69conv]

Highflyer wrote: Just a thought, but sniper units around the world are discouraged from shooting at 500 yards and beyond because things become too unsure. If these professionals with specialized equipment (and a spotter to boot!) who shoot for a living are discouraged from passing the 500 yard mark, how does the average hunter have any business shooting anywhere close to that?

I know, your hear about the 1000 yard kill and on and on, but these seem to be the exception rather than the rule in the military units. Correct me if I'm wrong.

You are correct flyer. Hence why we are taught the arts of concielment and evasion as well as long range calculations. I think the main concern on this subject is relitivly simple and easily answered. CAN you make this shot with guaranteed results on a clean kill? If you can HONESTLY answer yes to this question in your mind then, in my own opinion, gently squeeze the trigger. The MAIN word in that statement was HONESTLY!!! Some may talk all kinds of mess but the fact is they know in their hearts if they are being honest with themselves or are they just puffing up (machismo). There is most certainly cartridges and rifles out there that are perfectly capable of making 500+ yard shots with relitive ease. But the problems that a lot of people dont seem to be able to get through their thick sculls is this, THAT RIFLE IN YOUR HANDS IS A TOOL NOT A MAGIC WAND!! It does nothing to MAKE the shot for you. Its YOU that has to take into account all your velocity data, ballistic coefficiants, trajectory paths, wind velocity and direction, lord so many things id get hand cramps trying to type them. Fact is while these shots are indeed POSSIBLE they are not PROBABLE in the real world among your average or even above average hunters.

I was just sitting here last night watching an ad for a dvd out about long range shots on big game. All shots on the dvd are from 390 yards out to 1000. The dvd that was being advertised was an instructional dvd on how to set up your weapon and techniques on shooting form and such to teach the average hunter how to accomplish this. Im guessing from all the posts I see on many different forums on this subject that the producers of that video are gonna get pretty rich.

Anyway thats my opinion and this is an opinion from a former trained scout/sniper with training to take those long range shots but I limit myself to the ART of HUNTING not SHOOTING.. I rarely if ever take a shot past 200 yards anymore.. Granted in my youthfull more exuberant and STUPID past I took those increadibly long shots and 95% of the time they ended in game recovery. But I do sit back and ask myself sometimes, "I wonder if I really missed that 6x6 or did I hit him and it just didnt react". Im like Don on this one, MBPR or dont take the shot. Simple and easy and no wondering in my heart if I can make it or not!

[remington]

Army or Corps?