BigGameHunt.net Hunting Forums

[RMulhern]

Hammer1 wrote: I promised myself i wouldn't get into the long range shooting debate, and to some degree I will not:
First : it can be very expensive
Seconly: Very few folks have access to extended ranges
Third: Unless you are in competition with others, you are competing with yourself.
So, if you're presently shooting a 4 " group at 300 yards, why not concentrate on getting that down to a 2 " group, or smaller.
Serious LR Shooting is difficult for most and totally out of reach for many others, I'd suggest cutting the distance and increase the enjoyment, and enjoying the results.

Frankly.....I'd SUGGEST....dropping this topic altogether as there's so much IGNORANCE regarding the subject.......it's a lost cause!! Buckshot....is the ORDER OF THE DAY!! :](*,) :](*,)

And just so you'll be aware Hammer1 regarding your statement of "Third: Unless you are in competition with others, you are competing with yourself"....I competed with MYSELF at every match I ever shot in to BEAT A PERSONAL BEST! THAT....I might add is the spirit of competition!

No....you really DO NOT NEED to delve into this subject...because as I stated above....it would be a lost cause! It's out of reach for you!!

[Don Fischer]

Rick,

I don't think it's ignorance, I think it's confussion. Most long range shooters end up telling of the deer they shot in the next county, or plan on shooting in the next county, and the ethics debate begins. Weather you believe it's ethical or not to shoot at animals at long range, you have to admit there are a lot of people that think it is not, myself included. I don't really believe that it's the long range shooting that bothers many people, it's the result that tests the skill on an animal which a good deal of us don't think is necessary. There is a difference between shooting and killing.

But I also believe that long range shooting has a very very good side effect. It makes us better a more normal game ranges! My own long range, which isn't that far is 400yds measured but I confine killing shots to much much less than that.

The confussion then is the purpose for the long range shot. Most people that take it seriously are extreamly adament at protecting their assumed right to shoot at anything legal at any range they choose and are very vocal about it. If they were not so willing to get in peoples face about it, they would greatly further their cause. Let's face it, the more people you can get shooting well at 500yds, the more people will shoot better at 200yds. The goal of shooting should be learning skills to shoot well. The goal of hunting shoild be to get close. Combine the two and you should get what most would concider reasonably close and provide a great shot as apposed to seeing how far away you can kill something. The goal of killing is to terminate a life, it should never be left to chance. I don't care how good you are at what ever range you shoot. The farther away from the barrel the bullet gets, the greater aiming factors are amplified, the more time for wind to drift a bullet and the less likely an appeared missed shot will be investigated. Also the less likely the shooter can even accurately mark the place the animal was standing when the shot was made, to go look for blood.

Shooting for sport and shooting to kill, two entirely different things.

[cowgal]

Don Fischer wrote:
Shooting for sport and shooting to kill, two entirely different things.

Don hit the nail on the head. I'm only interested in the shooting aspect NOT hunting.

Rick why so testy? I asked a very simple question. I may not want to shoot on your level, or compete in officially sanctioned competitions, but I'm always interested in new firearms, improving my skills and pushing my own limits.

Hammer makes valid points, it is expensive and and very few folks have ranges available to them within a reasonable driving distance. It should be apparent that LR shooting is not for everyone.

Now, lets get back on topic.

[RMulhern]

Don Fischer wrote: Rick,

I don't think it's ignorance, I think it's confussion. Most long range shooters end up telling of the deer they shot in the next county, or plan on shooting in the next county, and the ethics debate begins. Weather you believe it's ethical or not to shoot at animals at long range, you have to admit there are a lot of people that think it is not, myself included. I don't really believe that it's the long range shooting that bothers many people, it's the result that tests the skill on an animal which a good deal of us don't think is necessary. There is a difference between shooting and killing.

But I also believe that long range shooting has a very very good side effect. It makes us better a more normal game ranges! My own long range, which isn't that far is 400yds measured but I confine killing shots to much much less than that.

The confussion then is the purpose for the long range shot. Most people that take it seriously are extreamly adament at protecting their assumed right to shoot at anything legal at any range they choose and are very vocal about it. If they were not so willing to get in peoples face about it, they would greatly further their cause. Let's face it, the more people you can get shooting well at 500yds, the more people will shoot better at 200yds. The goal of shooting should be learning skills to shoot well. The goal of hunting shoild be to get close. Combine the two and you should get what most would concider reasonably close and provide a great shot as apposed to seeing how far away you can kill something. The goal of killing is to terminate a life, it should never be left to chance. I don't care how good you are at what ever range you shoot. The farther away from the barrel the bullet gets, the greater aiming factors are amplified, the more time for wind to drift a bullet and the less likely an appeared missed shot will be investigated. Also the less likely the shooter can even accurately mark the place the animal was standing when the shot was made, to go look for blood.

Shooting for sport and shooting to kill, two entirely different things.

Don

GO BACK....and read the title of this forum! It's LONG RANGE SHOOTING.....not.....LONG RANGE HUNTING! Many folks are HIGHLY CAPABLE of making long shots on game....and I for one do not begrudge them the capability to do so! But this forum is LONG RANGE SHOOTING.....and if that's beyond their comprehension.....the subject needs to be dropped for whatever reason! But I'm still convinced it's IGNORANCE....more than "kornfusion"!! :](*,) :](*,)

Oh....and as a sidebet.....I'd say there's a lot more game shot at and missed....included wounding INSIDE 200 yds. than BEYOND!! :yes: :yes:

[CVC]

[quote="cowgal"] Don Fischer wrote:

Now, lets get back on topic.

I ran into a guy at my range that said he was preparing for a 1000 yard competition. I should have asked him about it, but I was busy practicing, but the question I have is how do people prepare for long range competitions/

Do they all have 500 or 1000 yard ranges available for practice or is it unnecessary to practice at the long distances to be prepared? My range has a 200 yard target.

[RMulhern]

[quote="CVC"] cowgal wrote: Don Fischer wrote:

Now, lets get back on topic.

I ran into a guy at my range that said he was preparing for a 1000 yard competition. I should have asked him about it, but I was busy practicing, but the question I have is how do people prepare for long range competitions/

Do they all have 500 or 1000 yard ranges available for practice or is it unnecessary to practice at the long distances to be prepared? My range has a 200 yard target.

CVC

They GO.....where a range is available! For lack of an adequate instructor.......they attend a match or events and learn OJT! There are portions of this country whereby one can shoot to ten miles.....if so inclined; Wyoming, Colorado, Montana, Texas, portions of North Louisiana, Nebraska, the Dakota's, etc. This is why I don't live 'back east'... :[-X :[-X ...which SUCKS ....IMO!!

[Don Fischer]

Rick,

You are right. My reply that includes what is called long range hunting is there only as explaination as to why I believe there are those who's defence mech. comes on instently. The two have been made pretty much one and the same and mostly the long range subject always comes up on hunting sites. That will always happen, weather thats good or bad, others will decide for themselves.

[hostage67]

Don Fischer wrote: Rick,

You are right. My reply that includes what is called long range hunting is there only as explaination as to why I believe there are those who's defence mech. comes on instently. The two have been made pretty much one and the same and mostly the long range subject always comes up on hunting sites. That will always happen, weather thats good or bad, others will decide for themselves.

The hunting aspect has absolutely nothing to do with this topic, not even for RMulherns response. His response was completely about shooting never once mentioning hunting. His position was simply that we were all ignorant about long range shooting.

Frankly he is probably right for the majority of us. That is why we are here in this topic, to learn more about it. I just wish that he would give more usefull information about the subject rather than to simply imply that we are all ignorant of the subject since that's information most of us already know.

[fuzzybear]

Hey there cowgal
Are you getting any info to help?
If you would like, there's a gunssmith about 20 miles up the road that i have coffee with once in a while. He builds these 1000 yd rifles. I'm sure he would have some answers for ya. Let me know what questions you have and I'll pass them on.
Two rounds I know he has built rifles for are the 6.5/284 and the 338 Lapua. One of his 6.5/284's won one of the competitions at just over 4" @ 1000 yds. At one time he had one or two for sale on consignment.
We have a 1000 yd range out in Eatonville and there are quite a few competitors that frequent the range. Especially during the events.

[RMulhern]

hostage67 wrote: Don Fischer wrote: Rick,

You are right. My reply that includes what is called long range hunting is there only as explaination as to why I believe there are those who's defence mech. comes on instently. The two have been made pretty much one and the same and mostly the long range subject always comes up on hunting sites. That will always happen, weather thats good or bad, others will decide for themselves.

The hunting aspect has absolutely nothing to do with this topic, not even for RMulherns response. His response was completely about shooting never once mentioning hunting. His position was simply that we were all ignorant about long range shooting.

Frankly he is probably right for the majority of us. That is why we are here in this topic, to learn more about it. I just wish that he would give more usefull information about the subject rather than to simply imply that we are all ignorant of the subject since that's information most of us already know.

hostage67

Admittedly....I can get quite 'perturbed' at times and I'm not noted for being 'politically correct' but speak my mind at the time! When folks start mentioning 'standing up and making 500 yd. shots offhand at game' just in an attempt to turn others off.....that makes my hinney want to take a dip of snuff! I don't know ANYONE with LR shooting experience that would be stupid enough to do that so in my mind......that statement was foolish and moot! Whether it's steel....or paper......there are many that have paid the price to learn the art of LR shooting and it's not learned overnight! As for being expensive.......yes....it takes an investment but I like to think about a statement that Col. Townsend Whelen made once upon a time that went like this: "Only accurate rifles are interesting"! So....it will take more than a Remington 742 and an Otasco scope to enter the world of LR shooting! Where some might be satisfied with a hunting rifle that will shoot into 2" at 100 yds. I want my hunting rifle to be able to explode tennis balls at 600 yds. or to put it another way....."I desire no rifles that I can outshoot"! All the accurate rifles I have are either bolt actions or single shots with falling breech-blocks meaning Sharps and or Browning HiWall rifles. With very few exceptions.....there are not many rifles today that are accurate enough right out of the box to be ultra-accurate but with a little work and attention to detail......such as bedding the action and floating the barrel, squaring the face of the action, lapping the bolt lugs so they mate up correctly, and with possibly some trigger work.....Reminton 700 and Winchester M70 rifles make very fine LR rifles. In some instances I have jerked the barrel from a brand new M70 and installed a new barrel because the one that came with it looked as if it had been cut with a 'breaking plow'!! Such is the quality of workmanship that comes from some of our heretobefore major manufacturers of firearms and it's gotten worse within the past 15 years! Once upon a time I had a guy ask me about the cost of building up an accurate rifle and I told him that for around $1500.00 he could have a very accurate rifle made up for hunting across flat country and when he heard the price his eyes rolled back in his head....and I thought I was going to have to make a call to 911! But....two days later he passed my homesite pulling a bass boat that was worth about $30 Grand....pulled by a new truck that went for around $40 Grand! So....basically....one has to have their priorities in place before seeking a new endeavor!! In my judgement.....BASS FISHERMEN don't make good LR shooters anyway!!

[bitmasher]

Quote:
1) what are the preferred calibers for long range shooting?


Anything .224 or better. Some would disagree though and say .243 (6mm) or better. Depends on how long is long. Even for high velocity .224 cartridges the poor B.C. starts to show up making wind drift prediction hard. That being said 22-250 years ago used to be the "long range" king.

Quote:
2) for those calibers, what cartridges are best?


That's like asking "what art is best". Most cartridges are capable of fine accuracy in a high quality rifle, but some rise above the pack when a few tenths of an inch matter. Wild cats galore in the upper echelons of esoteric long shooting.

Quote:
3) is handloading best? or will store bought work?


If every tenth of an inch matters, there is no substitute for hand loading. If you don't want to reload, Federal Gold Match Premium and Black Hills Gold is considered to be some of (if not the) best factory ammo available. Sharp shooters, military or otherwise will use these lines if they are not reloaders. Note that this ammo usually uses hornady or sierra match grade bullets.

Quote:
4) how powerful should the scope be? fixed or variable?


Personally I like fixed 10x or better. For ranges exceeding 500 yards, higher magnification is a bonus, especially if you are shooting at non-match targets (10" X ring, etc).

If I was just getting started and was uncertain about whether or not I would be reloading, I would probably go with a 308 win. There are many fine factory guns chambered in this round, that are capable of well under m.o.a. accuracy out of the box, although for the best you will pay a few kilo bucks. Plus being that this round is heavily used for le and military applications, federal and bh tend to pump out enough of the ammo to keep the price down. 338 Lapua is nice, but factory black hills ammo is going to run you $80-$90 for 20 shots.

A high end factory rig plus a good scope would probably run around $3000-$4000. This equipment won't be good enough to beat the best, but it would be more than adequate to get start and see if you want to take the next step to a custom rig and all the rest of the costs associated.

Personally I would start at 100 yards. If you can't consistently put 5, 5 shots groups under an inch, why bother going further? It only gets harder from there. Then try to get get your gun out on a different day and without warm up, put 5 shots into the X ring (1" or less) for five groups. Then try it on a mildly windy day.

The current world record is a group size around 2.8" inches for five shots at 1000 yards, with typical best shooters holding somewhere 4-6" on average for five shots. That is truly stunning shooting, but you don't have to shoot that well or even go that far to enjoy the challenge.

I would spend some time learning m.o.a/mils and how to figure the flight path for your given cartridge. Its pointless even try hitting a 40" target at 1000 yards without first being able to make the adjustment to your scope to compensate for bullet drop in advance to put you on paper. Guessing just doesn't work.

[bitmasher]

Oh and you don't HAVE to use a scope. For real fun try shooting apertures consistently.

[cowgal]

Thanks Bitmasher! That was some good info! :D You bring up quite a few points to consider before jumping into this game. Looks like lots of calibers to choose from. I didn't realize that smaller calibers would work. Before this discussion, I thought only the largest calibers were capable of distances over 500 yards.

Fuzzybear, yes its been helpful. I'm doing some research on my own as well.

Sadly, there are no LR shooting ranges within 4 hours drive. I may need to talk to our local range and see if its possible to accommodate targets for up to 1000 yds. I think it will be difficult or maybe even impossible. Its fairly level out to about 300 yards, then climbs uphill very quickly into brush. I don't think shooting up a steep incline is desireable.

I'm going to look at some of the suggested calibers. Several gunshops close by have both new and used inventory. One has a couple 338 lapuas, but I don't believe they've been customized. Don't believe I've ever seen a rifle for the 6.5/284 round. But I'm going to start asking around! :D

PM me the details about the local gunsmith and the inventory he may have available, please.

RMulhern, nobody here is too concerned about political correctness. However common courtesy is expected.

[Don Fischer]

Oh....and as a sidebet.....I'd say there's a lot more game shot at and missed....included wounding INSIDE 200 yds. than BEYOND!!

_____________________________________

Rick,

Thats a sucker bet! :yes: Of course thats ture, a lot more animals are shot at at 200yds and less. Of course if there were some way to accurately record the misses both under and over, I'd sure bet that a larger percentage of the total game shot at in each, 200+ has it hands down! It's a numbers game, nice try! ::wave1

[RMulhern]

cowgal wrote: Thanks Bitmasher! That was some good info! :D You bring up quite a few points to consider before jumping into this game. Looks like lots of calibers to choose from. I didn't realize that smaller calibers would work. Before this discussion, I thought only the largest calibers were capable of distances over 500 yards.

Fuzzybear, yes its been helpful. I'm doing some research on my own as well.

Sadly, there are no LR shooting ranges within 4 hours drive. I may need to talk to our local range and see if its possible to accommodate targets for up to 1000 yds. I think it will be difficult or maybe even impossible. Its fairly level out to about 300 yards, then climbs uphill very quickly into brush. I don't think shooting up a steep incline is desireable.

I'm going to look at some of the suggested calibers. Several gunshops close by have both new and used inventory. One has a couple 338 lapuas, but I don't believe they've been customized. Don't believe I've ever seen a rifle for the 6.5/284 round. But I'm going to start asking around! :D

PM me the details about the local gunsmith and the inventory he may have available, please.

RMulhern, nobody here is too concerned about political correctness. However common courtesy is expected.

cowgal

" However common courtesy is expected"

"Courtesy granted begets courtesy rendered"!