BigGameHunt.net Hunting Forums

[Captain_Obvious]

Well, if your shot hits outside the kill zone, it doesn't matter what round you're using. You may or may not recover the animal. I dread, I absolutely dread, going to BassProShops or places like it anymore, because all I ever hear about at the gun counter is endless blabbering about rifles for 400 yard+ shooting at deer and elk. The farthest I will shoot at an animal is 300 yards. Period. I've also had people tell me a 30-06 is not strong enough for elk, or they won't hunt even deer with it because it doesn't shoot flat enough. Now correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems to me that a difference of a couple of inches (between a 30-06 and a 300 Win. Mag), isn't really so significant. I've even had people try to tell me a Big 7 is too small for elk. A 7mm Rem. Mag and a 300 Win. Mag perform almost identically on big game. I guess that doesn't matter.

[fuzzybear]

I ran some figures through the ballistics program for my own curiosity and this is what I can up with.

I figured velocity with the most common barrel length per cartridge.
All cartridges were figured with the Nosler Partition.
All energies are figured at 300 yds.
All weights were chosen for best performance. ( in the .277 in. the 140's performed better than the 150's ).

This is a list of the most common rounds I hear mentioned, for elk, from the highest to lowest.

#1 30-378 wea 180gr @ 3250 2,759 fpe
#2 300 rum 180gr @ 3200 2,665 fpe
#3 300 wea 180gr @ 3150 2,575 fpe
#4 300 wm 180gr @ 3100 2,487 fpe
#5 7mm mag 175gr @ 3000 2,341 fpe
#6 300 wsm 180gr @ 3000 2,314 fpe
#7 300 saum 180gr @ 2950 2,232 fpe
#8 270 wea 140gr @ 3250 2,177 fpe
#9 270 wsm 140gr @ 3200 2,104 fpe
#10 30-06 180gr @ 2800 1,993 fpe
#11 270 win 140gr @ 2950 1,761 fpe
#12 308 win 180gr @ 2600 1,698 fpe

The higher BC of the 175gr 7 mag puts out a tad more fpe than the 180gr 300wsm, at the same velocity.

With the 30-06 and 180gr partition a standard for elk. This helped give me a little better perspective. It turned out to be interesting. They all exceed the 1,500 fpe minimum for elk out to 300 yds. With Failsafes or Barnes X or even Bear Claws the lesser rounds would perform without doubt.

[Captain_Obvious]

I guess the best of those would be the one you can shoot best with.

[reconabe]

I would like to know the powders used in that data, or perhaps where the data came from. Just so I can read up on some load data.

[fuzzybear]

Reconabe

The powder used changes with every case. Case capacity, bullet weight, type of primer, barrel length are all variables that are taken into consideration. I have several loading manuals that I obtain information from for loads. I also have been loading for many years and have a general idea of what should be able to be reached in performance and look for that particular combination.

I keep 9 powders stocked to make loads for the 3 main hunting cartridges I use. Some of these powders are used for a single cartridge / bullet weight combination. Some are used for 2 or 3 different combinations.

The best way to answer your question is. Gather as many loading manuals as you can find and start comparing the information. There are powders that burn at different rates and they are used for specific purposes. For instance, in a 30-06 size case. With the heavier bullets you would probably pick a slower burning powder than you would for the lighter bullets for the same cartridge.

Start by getting some manuals and read about the different components, as well as the loads. I have 12 different books I use to acquire information, and if the information I need is not in any of the books I have. I call the company that make the component or ? and ask questions.

Have fun it gets addicting.

[147 Grain]

I like the venerable 30-06 and with the right bullet, you can get 300 Win Mag performance.

Example:

30-06 Winchester Premium 180-gr. BONDED AccuBond will have higher velocity / energy than their standard 300 Win Mag 180-gr. Power Point load at about 250 yards.

This is because the 30-06 AccuBond is more aerodynamic than the Super X Power Point and negates the 250 fps advantage of the 300 Win Mag at ranges most big game are shot.

[Don Fischer]

Quote: There are lots of opinions on the 270 and this is just my take. A 150gr bullet is not a elk bullet in my opinion and thats the biggest you can get in a 270, its a deer bullet. In an 06 you can go up to a 180gr bullet plus you have more cross-sectional density.

According to my data, the 270 150 gr and above bullet's as well as 6.5 140 gr and above bullet's have better sectional density's than the 30 cal 180 gr bullet.

Now I would agree that a 150 gr 30 cal bullet is not an elk bullet but, the same weight bullet in 277 dia is a different horse. If you would agree that a 115 gr bullet is a good deer bullet from a 25-05, then in your reasoning, a 110 gr 30 cal bullet must also be?

You also spoke of an elk with four vital's shot's that ran off. But then described two of the shot's as #1 liver #2 kidney. Correct me if I'm wrong but, aren't those organs in the gut chamber? That will certainly kill in time but, qualifies as gut shot!

[Don Fischer]

Quote: There are lots of opinions on the 270 and this is just my take. A 150gr bullet is not a elk bullet in my opinion and thats the biggest you can get in a 270, its a deer bullet. In an 06 you can go up to a 180gr bullet plus you have more cross-sectional density.

According to my data, the 270 150 gr and above bullet's as well as 6.5 140 gr and above bullet's have better sectional density's than the 30 cal 180 gr bullet.

Now I would agree that a 150 gr 30 cal bullet is not an elk bullet but, the same weight bullet in 277 dia is a different horse. If you would agree that a 115 gr bullet is a good deer bullet from a 25-05, then in your reasoning, a 110 gr 30 cal bullet must also be?

You also spoke of an elk with four vital's shot's that ran off. But then described two of the shot's as #1 liver #2 kidney. Correct me if I'm wrong but, aren't those organs in the gut chamber? That will certainly kill in time but, qualifies as gut shot!

By the way, I,m not a 270 fan.

[Guest]

Don, I once saw a man kill a 5 x 5 bull elk at over 440 yards, with a shot through the liver and up into the lungs. The bullet was a Nosler partition in the 180 grain weight, place was Wyoming, rifle caliber was a 30-06.

This last elk season, I did accomplish what I always wanted to do and that was kill an elk with a 25-06 caliber bullet from my favorite rifle. I did harvest my bull using a 115 grain TBBC bullet. However, I have no intentions of ever trying this feat again understand. I was presented with a great shot on a bull standing in the meadow broadside to me. I have never had that shot scenario play out before either, not in my 40 years of hunting elk. The distance was a around 160 yards I figured. The bullet penetrated the heart and lungs, it went between the ribs on entry. The bull turned and walked away, leaving me a Texas heart shot! No can do with a 1/4 bore on elk. It was 75 yards later that the bull whobbled and fell down.

I intend to hunt elk this year as well, the Good LORD willing! I intend to use a model 70 Winchester in a wildcat I made up last year, a 338/300-Ultra mag using a 225 grain premium bullet. My backup rifle is a model 70 Winchester in the .338 magnum using a 250 grain Swift A Frame bullet. On elk I will echo the words of Elmer Keith: BIGGER IS ALWAYS BETTER!

[Don Fischer]

Quick-sand, this is interesting. I too have done thing's better left undone and un-talked about. The shot with the 30-06 hold's no suprise but the range is far in excess of what I, and sound's like you, would take.

On the 25-06, I use one a good deal but have never carried it elk hunting even tho I know that the right shot with the right bullet placed in the right spot will give you a dead elk 100% of the time. Like you, I don't think that that makes it an elk cartridge.

Neither do I believe that 30 cal and larger are necessary, they are not excessive either. Your 338-300 ultra mag is likely going to be a good elk cartridge. This for the sake of other's, if you use a good bullet and place it properly. There are so many different cartridge's that work well in a given instance it boggle's the mind. I figure a good starting place is with 140 gr and bigger bullet's in a 6.5x55/260 Rem. Then as calibre go's up, so does suitable bullet weight.

So what is it like shooting your 338-300ultra mag? How heavy is the rifle, what barrel length? My experience with 338's was an L61R Sako w/ 25" barrel and a mod77 Ruger w/24" barrel. Neither were to bad to shoot if you stayed in practice but both were a bear if you didn't. Both were very accurate and I truely loved the Sako although I had little use for it. Back then for elk I carried either my 7mm Rem Mag, w/160 gr Speer hot core's or my 7x57 w/154 gr Hornady's.

[Guest]

Don, they say all things come full circle in ones life! So much for my idea of a long range elk slammer you might say. Yes, this wildcat sports a 26 inch fluted stainless barrel on a stainles model 70 action and full length aluminum bedding in a Hogue stock. I had high hopes for it to be used this season but my shoulder and neck suffered to much from just trying it over the several weeks prior to the elk season. Thus my reason for taking the 25-06 to hunt with in the high country last season.

I tried several combinations of powders and bullets! I shot the rifle every 3rd day at the gun club. I needed the 2 days in between, so my body could play catch up to the hammering. I never did get to shoot this rifle like I had hoped for
and for this I am very sorry to express but that is reality sometimes and one must learn to deal with such issues. The recoil generated by full blown Max loads is more than a .357H&H delivers and that spells "OUCH" with capital letters OK.

However, if you insist on knowing the true amount of recoil, I don't mind telling you Don. I used RL-22 & RL-25 powders at 100 grains of powder. The bullets were in the 225 & 250 grain weight. The recoil generated to the body with a Max Dose of powder is 60 pounds in a 9 pound rifle, using the 250 grain bullet will bring it up about 4 more pounds. not pleasant after the second shot from the bench. My accuracy at 400, 500 & 600 yards was half what I can do with a standard 300 Win mag in a model 70 rifle.

I did have the recoil pad on my shoulder but shooting it along with a couple of other big bores tended to wear my body down to a slow steady ache very quickly. All said and done, I will more than likely sell this shoulder cannon as several at the gun club have showed lots of interests. I am going back to what got me to the dance you might say, my trusty 300 Win mag and .338 win mag. I won't be shooting past that 400 yard marker after all in the future.

[Don Fischer]

He who has not loved and lost, has not loved at all. 60# of recoil, wow!

[Guest]

Don one of my all time favorite elk and moose calibers is the 338/06 caliber. It will do just about anything a 35 Whelen will do or the .338 mag also under 300 yards. All this on a 30-06 case, being very economical to boot.

I do love my 1/4 bore 06 for just about everything around the place and even a visit to speed goat land once in a while, however when it comes to elk, I am going to stay with a .338 caliber because it does turn out their lights with more authority and a hunter doesn't have to worry about any angle that animal might be standing. :D

[rather_be_huntin]

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[rather_be_huntin]

Don Fischer wrote:

According to my data, the 270 150 gr and above bullet's as well as 6.5 140 gr and above bullet's have better sectional density's than the 30 cal 180 gr bullet.

By the way, I,m not a 270 fan.

Don - IMO sectional density is only part of the equation. Now the .270 on elk has been run into the ground so I have no desire to light this fire back up, but at the end of the day sectional density and energy don't mean squat when a bullet breaks apart on a shoulder. That's all I was trying to say when I said a 150 gr bullet is not an elk bullet.