BigGameHunt.net Hunting Forums

[rather_be_huntin]

No raging emotion just the blunt truth. As I said before if you feel using a 270 is ethical then use it. But don't do it just because you don't feel like buying a new rifle. I mean whats next? You find out the ammo you should use is more expensive so you buy cheaper ammo cause you don't have the money? Money is always an issue but if you can't afford the right equipment then you can't play the game, that is ethical when it comes to hunting.

My entire point was that the question of minimum elk cartridge is an ethical issue, not a monetary one. We have too many people ( I don't know you and not pointing the finger, just going off of your words) that don't care about the big picture and that is detremental to hunting itself. There are too many hillbilly's out there who shoot at anything they see, wound animals and give us all a bad rap.

[fuzzybear]

I'd like to get back to the topic of this thread.

There are new powders, bullet styles and types, cartridges and combinations of all of the above developed on a regular basis. Some of them work for the intended purpose and some serve no purpose except to duplicate an already existing development.

If the only round I owned was a 270win and there were no bullets developed for large elk sized game I wouldn't be able to hunt critters of that size, period. The development of bullets with better construction has allowed the smaller diameter rounds to be used for these larger critters without doubt or that unsure feeling that I don't have enough bullet. There are limits to any load, but if the load and the bullet meet the range for the critter on the agenda use it, if you feel comfortable that it will do the job. If there is any doubt, don't use it. Never use a round just because it's the only thing you have!

There are three things I enjoy. Loading and shooting for target and hunting, my work and sex, but not neccessarily in that order. If I have a load that I would like to use on a hunt I research it. Call the company that developed the component and start working with it. If it meets the need, the ability to do the job at hand, it's a keeper.

With every rifle and caliber that I have owned over the last several years, I have tried a variety of loads to see what they are capable of with the components that are available at the time.

Example:
Many of these wizzbang cartridges that are on the market nowadays were wildcats that never met the criteria needed until the development of the slower powders that are available at present. With the development of the bullets we have available in combination, these guns could be used for game that we would never have attempted 20 yrs ago.

The times they are a changin'.

[rather_be_huntin]

Well I agree with one thing, times are changing. Hunters and the sport of hunting are under a micorscope more than ever. Shouldn't we put ourselves well into the black and stay out of the grey?

What I mean is this. With all the great cartridges why use an OK one? I think we owe it to the game we hunt to use optimal killing power. There is a reason why so many question the 270. How many people question the 30-06?

[fuzzybear]

I think your absolutely right. We need to be responsible on our choice of cartridge for the game at hand. What I would like to stress is. If a hunter wants to use, for instance, a 270. There are bullets available that are designed for penetration in large game. Use a bullet that is designed for that purpose, not one that happens to be available.

The same could be said for a 30-06 or something in the 300 mags. A light jacketed 150gr out of a 300 mag is also a poor choice for elk, but there are hunters that use them with the thinking that they go faster or they are more accurate in their rifle, so they use them in place of a bullet that was designed for the purpose.

This is an interesting thread. I'll check back later. The gal wants to take me out for some dinner.

[Captain_Obvious]

A 150 grain bullet from a 7mm Remington Magnum will probably do the job on an elk, as I've read on some sites dedicated to the round. The 154 grain bullet made by Hornady is an excellent choice for cow elk, and would work on bulls. But the 160, 162, and 165 grain bullets are the most suitable for an animal as large as an elk. The function, and perform, just about as well as a 180-190 grain bullet fired from a 300 Winchester Magnum, those bullet weights being the correct weights for elk hunting with a .30 caliber weapon. 150 grain .30s are made to expand fast- too fast for heavily-built animals like elk and moose.

[fuzzybear]

That was the best dinner I've had all day.

So how does information on what is the proper choice of components to use on the game at hand in any particular caliber get to the hunter. I've read articles in outdoor and hunting magazines that do nothing but hype up some component or product that the author is paid to promote. I look at most of these articules as deceptive misleadings. These gun writers don't promote whats best. they promote what the highest bidder is trying to sell. One of the bullet manufacturers I called about information on a new component they were producing didn't volunteer any information. It was like talking to a 3 year old. I had to ask the right questions. So where does the responsibility lay for getting the information to the hunter that the hunter needs. If I pull the trigger it is my responsibility to be informed. If I screw it up it is my responsibility. If the manufacturers don't want to inform the hunting public, who pays. I do, the hunting public.

It's simple, when elk hunting. Use elk bullets.

[Captain_Obvious]

That is exactly why I don't read hunting magazines. I get my informational assistance from boards like this, and from books. As for these super-accurate whizzbangs that shoot -1 inch groups, what the writer doesn't talk about is the 3 and 4 inch groups their whizzbang also shot during that session.

[rather_be_huntin]

Fuzzy - Well you certainly have the right apporach to this subject. We agree that porper bullet construction for the cartridge you are shooting is very important to elk hunting as opposed to deer where its not as critical. But whats central to our spin off of the original post is, is there a 150 gr factory loaded 270 round that is better than marginal at cleanly taking a big bull elk? I say a BIG bull elk because you have to be prepared for a "worst case scenario" if you will.

Its obvious you feel there are. I feel there "may" be but I'm not convinced at this point. My experience tells me that the 150 gr bullets, up until 3 years ago, tend to but not always break up when hitting the shoulder of a bull. That bull can run off a ways before he expires. Seen em go more than a mile. A well placed shot will very often take a bull down very fast but again theres always that maybe.

With any round theres always a chance for failure and poor shots occur with any round. My personal feelings are that 150 grs is just a little on the light side and why you see varying results from hunter to hunter. It's like Chevy (cause Ford would never have a problem :D ) recalling a part on thier trucks. Most of the trucks that carry this part they recall never fail and you get a lot of people asking, "why did they recall that I never had a problem?" When a 150 gr bullet fails (breaks apart) its rare compared to how often it succeeds. Bear attacks happen but how many of us have actually been attacked. Its a rare thing but I feel it happens enough to leave out the 270 when talking elk. Cause the first time it happens to you it will be devestating to you. If its a big bull it'll make you down right sick. Elk are very tough resiliant critters and they absorb a lot of punishment sometimes before going down.

I personally just feel the 150gr bullets I've seen are not reliable enough I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on that point.

Happy huntin!

[fuzzybear]

Rather_be - Thanks I hope all my hunts are happy ones.

When I go out after elk I'm looking to have a good hunt and put some meat in the freezer. The 270 is my favorite round in the field, although it is not my primary hunting round. I more often than not grabbed for the 30-06 with 165's or 180's. I have since replaced the '06 with a 300wsm.

I agree totally with you on the larger trophy sized elk. These are huge animals that have a tenacity to survive. That should be respected. These huge monarchs are few and far between and I have yet to see one in my sights that I just had to have on my wall. Besides it's a whole bunch of work getting one of those big boys out of the woods. I rather prefer the eating size and the 270 is plenty of gun for them, with proper bullet construction. If I was out after one of the monsters I would, most certainly, not have a 270 with me. It would definitely be the 300wsm with 180's or 200's of premium quality construction.

I wonder, sometime, when I'm reading these threads if some of these hunters have ever seen one of these big elk. We get some of these big boy out in the local pastures feeding with the cattle during the summer months. Believe me they are huge.

Happy huntin' back at ya.

I understand your point on the 150's out of a 270win. Are you familiar with the Trophy Bonded Bear Claws or the Accubonds from Nosler. They both run at 140gr and both would make an elk wished he'd stayed home.

[Captain_Obvious]

I would have figured the long 200s would be better from a 300 Winchester Magnum than a 300 WSM. How did you get them to work? What did you do?

[fuzzybear]

I wouldn't be able to say whether the 300wm can throw the 200's better than the 300wsm. I ended up using the loads out of the Nosler Fifth Edition manual.

I haven't cronographed any of the loads, so I have no idea what actual MV is. According to the figures in the manual. With H4831 I'm getting 18fps less velocity than the 300wm, with 2.5gr less powder. With RL 22 I'm getting 16fps less velocity than the 300wm, with 5.5gr less powder. I can't physically distinguish any difference between the two powders as far as performance. One thing that does assist the 300wsm loadings is they can be loaded to higher pressure. I also seated the 200gr Accubonds .07 from the lands. I don't usually go by manual seating depth. I seat according to how well it fits to the throat. Full length resizing, brass trimmed to 1.92 and winchester magnum primers. As far as the powder charge, I was able to pack a lot of powder.

I going to try the H1000 and see where it goes. I should be able to get better perfomance with less pressure, but the powder will probably fill the case and some.

Last but not least. When I pulled the trigger, it kicked like a mule.

[Captain_Obvious]

With 160 grain bullets loaded to 3200 fps in my 7mm Remington Magnum, it kicks pretty good too, in short, it takes a fairly good-natured round and nudges it into the class where 20 shots will make your shoulder a bit tender. That's a max load, I believe, for a case with a capacity of 83.2 grains. The 300 Win. Mag has a bit larger of a case, its case capacity is about 90 grains, but I have noticed that the 7mm is usually more accurate with very stout loads, and and delivers the same performance on big game. I haven't dealt with the 300 WSM yet, not very many people around here use any of the newer rounds, although our range has a pretty big attendance, so, sooner or later. I'd watch those long bullets in the short mag case, I think they might cut into your powder column and prevent you from utilizing an optimum load.

[fuzzybear]

The only reason I loaded the 200's in the short case was because of the Accubond. A 200gr hunting bullet with a BC of .588. I had to try them. The 180's would probably be a better choice. Although the 200's fly real flat for 300 yds.

[Captain_Obvious]

It can be fun going match-for-match with different loads. Since I primarily load the 7mm, I don't have much experience with .30s, but long bullets can be tough to wring optimum performance out of. With 175 grain bullets, I can still get about 3078 fps, but regardless of what powder I use, the 195 grain bullet is far less ambitious.

[fuzzybear]

There seems to be a trend happening with elk hunters around this area. There are a lot more 300 weatherby's and the 300 rum is making a big appearance. With fewer 30-06's, 7mag's & 300wm's.

I was talking to a hunter at the gunsmith's shop this afternoon. He brought in a brand new, out of the box 300rum to have the trigger let down to 3.5 lbs. I asked him if that was the gun he was planning to take to Alaska next year. "Nope", he said. "This ones for around here. Last year I hit a black bear 3 times with a 30-06 and my partner had to bring him down with his 300rum. Another partner uses a 300 weatherby and brought an elk down with one shot at 500 yds, but I'm going with the 300rum."

I know for a fact that the three shots from the 30-06, at the bear, were gut shots. I don't think the 300rum is going to make a bit of difference for him. As far as the 500 yd one shot kill on the big bull from a 300 weatherby. Well, I don't know what to think. I don't know the guy that pulled the trigger. I wonder if they know how far 500 yds is.

I'm thinking that marksmanship has everything to do with this particular situation. Not neccessarily cartridge or bullet choice.