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Location: 5000' California
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In agreement now.

Critter,

Very good points. Sorry to have disagreed with you so quickly. I didn't consider the hunter going "off path" nor did I consider the logistics of packing out the meat. With those considerations in mind, I agree with you 100%, especially the requirement of a guide, or outfitter / packer, but not necessarily a mere "resident". Please accept my apologies if you were offended in any way. I stand corrected with your latest more informative post. Thank you.

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Exactly who are you trying to

Exactly who are you trying to "sell" here? If it is harder to obtain a license or more expensive to obtain a license then I will go elsewhere. Wyoming is NOT the MUST hunt state. I will take my hunting dollars elsewhere.

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I have hunted almost every

I have hunted almost every year in Wyoming since 1994 so I'm very familiar with the system. I have several important comments to make about this whole deal so please bear with me.
1---The Wilderness Act that keeps NRs from hunting big and trophy game without a guide or resident with an approved licensed to take a max of two people is strictly a subsidy for the outfitters. You can go in any of those areas at ANY time by yourself to do ANYTHING else without a guide, so safety is not their consideration. It is strictly to help the outfitters who had/have enough Legislators in their pocket to have voted it through and keep it in effect.

2---The proposed fees are not just for NRs. The fees are also being raised quite a bit for residents as well, but not as high as they should be IMHO and even many residents feels that way.

3---A close friend has been in correspondence with the Deputy Director mentioned by the OP because the OP initially completely misrepresented the draw to people on this and other Forums when he stated that a person with PPs does not go to the random draw for another chance at his first choice if he does not draw in the PP drawing. That is completely false, was verified in wriing in an email from the deputy Director that I personally read myself, and is one of the reasons people like the system because if you buy PPs and don't get your first choice in that draw you have a second chance because you have paid more money than the person with no PPs in the random draw. This proposal would not allow that any longer and also assumes a lot of people will pay money to enter a second and/or third choice when now you can do that for free. The OP fails to say that he is also an outfitter and this will help that industry because they will be able to have a better chance for people without PPs to draw a tag and go with them on an outfitted hunt, especially those repeat customers who have drawn his unit and lost their PPs and want to hunt again soon before they have enough PPs to be drawn again. This proposal goes against everything the current system was built on and that's to allow the PP holders a better chance and still allow a person that has none to draw a tag. Both the Deputy Director and the lady in charge of the draw have told my close friend that this proposal is dead in the water because the assumptions used for the money it might gain are not accurate and that it would allienate too many people that are PP holders vested in the present system that the OP would screw with this proposal. Most people do not want to see huge increases in fees, but that is better when it is spread across the board to everyone applying for a license and leaves the draw system as it is.

4---The G&F in Wyoming only gets 6% of it's money from the State General Fund and most of that is designated programs, many of which don't even involve hunting (grizzly studies as an example). Their budget will be between 8 and 10 million dollars short by 2015 if greatly increased funding is not found. This proposal will not even make a dent in that even if the assumptions the OP makes are correct and they are not in most people's opinion that have looked into the proposal in depth, including the G&F personnel themselves! I have seen the correspondence by email from G&F to my friend and what I'm stating is FACT!

5---The statement the OP made in an earlier post regarding me and my username is completely FALSE in every aspect!

6---In conclusion, tinkering with the draw process after it's inception like the OP is proposing goes against everyone who currently has PPs in the system and are relying that it stays the same until they are no longer in the PP race! Fair is fair and this proposal is not in the best interest of all those currently with PPs in the system.

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Location: 5000' California
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Wilderness Areas

Upon further reflection, I have to agree with Critter. I originally believed the guide / outfitter requirement was merely to benefit the licensed guides and state, but now see where it might be a good idea. Hunters often stray far from paths and trails. Successful hunters must also pack out their harvested game. The requirement of a guide / outfitter seems to be a good way to ensure big game hunters in the wilderness areas have the ability and resources to do so. If this requirement helps ensure game is not wasted, I'm in favor of it. I don't bother to hunt elk in Wyoming due to the states requirements. The guide / outfitter requirement makes it too cost prohibitive for our group, to say nothing of the restrictiveness. We like to do our own hunts and not be "guided" by others and their schedules etc... I've hunted the Ten Sleep area for the past 4 years and plan on doing so for many years to come. Wyoming deer/antelope hunting is hard to beat, regardless of tag costs, but I sure hope they stay reasonable, or I'll consider staying in California and paying to hunt private ranches. When the total costs start to get to around $700-$800 per week (food, gas, hotels, tags etc,,), private ranches near home start to make more sense.

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Sorry, but the requirement to

Sorry, but the requirement to use an outfitter only if you are hunting is strictly a friggin subsidy for them and nothing else or they wouldn't allow a NR to go without one for everything else like they do. Saftey and what you described is not the reason. It's flat out money based and that's a fact! PS: You don't happen to have a white vehicle and road hunt out there all day every day by chance do you? There was such a vehicle with a CA plate out in the area you mentioned where I also hunt and it went by up and down the road real slow so many times in a week that it was ridiculous!!! Whoever it was sure wasn't a hunter in any sense of the word!

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Topgun, in my original post I

Topgun, in my original post I did mention that it was mostly because of the outfitter lobbying efforts which turns into a subsidy for them. It is no different than here in Colorado where a land owner can tie up 1000 of acres by owning 10' of road that controls access to the mountain.

My big point was that most out of state hunters are not prepared for a wilderness hunt as far as getting in and getting the animals back out. Granted there are those that do have the equipment and knowhow such as horses that can do it but how many hunters that hunt with horses will trailer their horses a 1000 miles and get them into shape for a mountain hunt?

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Location: 5000' California
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Never Road Hunted

Nope, not us, but I think I saw the same group of guys you did last year. A white GMC 4 door truck with a USA flag decal on the back window? Three guys wearing orange everything?  Complained to DFG officer about them. Saw them on the first two days of the season near the Red Reflet Dude Ranch and Otter Creek (Spring Creek Rd).Also believe they may have been with the group of 3 other trucks who chased deer into the private fishing lodge near Canyon Creek on the airport road (434?) Our campground neighbors, two very tall brothers from Wisconsin who drove a big white Dodge diesel, told us about it. They ended up shooting one of the bigger deer being chased as it ran into the public parking lot for the trailhead. They said DFG wardens arrived a minute later and had conversations with the road hunting and trespassing idiots, but no arrests or citations were issued.

Unforutnately, there are quite a few other hunters from California hunting up there, but not nearly as many as are from Wisconsin, Minnesota and Michigan. Can't really blame the Cali guys, as there are almost NO deer herds left in that miserable state, but I hear you guys from the other states have an abundance of white tail deer to hunt. What gives?

Since you asked, in an almost accusative and insulting manner, we drive a blue Ford truck, silver Ford Explorer Sport and a dark grey Chevy truck. We camp at the old fish hatchery state park 6 miles north of town. We're pretty well known now to the local DFG wardens, sheriff's deputies and US Forrest Service officers. They stop by several times each season to swap stories and talk shop. Great group of folks and a credit to Wyoming. They're super protectors of the wildlife and turned us onto some ranches to hunt the first year we were there.

Most of our hunting these past four years was done on private ranches, namely the Bush ranch and Brubaker's Ranch. It's easier hunting for the older guys in our group. Some are over 70. They have too tough a time dragging out deer and traversing the barbed wire fences surrounding most of the public lands.

If you're going this year, stop by the campground and introduce yourself. We're mostly retired/semi-retired cop, except for one guy, who's getting close, but doesn't want to give up an executive level job at Intel just yet. We deplore "road hunters", if one can call that hunting. We prefer just setting up on a hill overlooking the alfalfa before sunrise, or before sunset, and shooting them from a prone or three point position. Can't understand why anyone would drive more than 1200 miles to road hunt, especially in Wyoming.

None in our group spends more than two hours in the morning and evenings hunting our "stands" and are always successful by the second or third day. This is an annual fun camping trip for us more than a hunting trip and deer is just an added bonus. Most of those in our group have taken many dozens of deer etc in our lifetimes and harvesting them on these trips is actually secondary to the two week campout among friends. We're simply not desparate enough, or inexperienced enough to even bother "road" hunting, and our "havesting" egos were satisfied many decades ago.

Are you in the group from MI that rents the ranch house on the Brubaker ranch? If so, we've probably met and spoken to one another.

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Sorry about that and I

Sorry about that and I apologize for even asking, but I'm sure you know that people see something like that and just being human extend it out that everyone with a CA plate are jerks. That's interesting that you guys are retired LEOs. I retired in 2002 after 30+ years as a LE Investigator with the MI Dept of AG myself! That is for sure the vehicle and guys that I was talking about. They were real jerks and I believe they would have shot a deer right out their window even if it was standing in the middle of the road. It doesn't surprise me that they would do something like you mentioned, but Tom probably couldn't cite them for it without really involving a bunch of witnesses to make it stick and probably felt a warning to them was the way to go. He's a super guy and I've known him ever since he moved to TenSleep in that Warden/Biologist position.

Yes, we have a lot of whitetails here in MI and I hunt the last two weeks of November after we hunt Wyoming, as that's when we have our rifle season up here. It's a completely different type of hunting than out where we're hunting in Wyoming and I've been going out in that area all but a couple years since 1994. Yep, I know right where the Bush Ranch and those fields are. Did you see the big flock of Merriams that was hanging around in the little pasture across from the Bush house? I do know Bobby Brubaker quite well too. He's quite the character! I used to hunt the second week of the season on his place after the guys from Muskegon, MI that rent the place left. I hunt mostly on the public land south of town, including what is accessible down on the Orchard Ranch, as well as another small ranch that borders Bobby's place. The Orchard Ranch is where I was going back and forth to when I would see that turkey flock by the Bush place. I do plan on being out there every year until I can't hunt any longer and I hope that's at least another 10-15 years because I absolutely love it out there.

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Location: 5000' California
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Ten Sleep

No big offense taken. We know of your frustrations and share them. A lot of bad mannered Californians taking their worst out of state, giving us all a negative reputation. It's even worse in Oregon near the border.

Seems we've shared a lot of common ground. Tried the apple pies at Dirty Sally's? Gave Bobby and the Bushs pies the last couple of years. Yup, we did see the turkey flock of about 12 birds. They were hanging around the the same pasture you saw them in. We took some nice white tail does and an antelope off Bush's ranch last year. Mule deer population was really down in his area, but according to their son, Miles, the elk herd is way out of control. We've started hunting just the does, as the out of state tags only run $48 total each and the ranchers don't seem to mind allowing you to hunt them.Big racks are scarce on the public grounds, even before the herd suffered from bad winters.

We usually hunt pigs in early spring, then wait until the Wyoming season starts (rifle) in October. I have a new deal to hunt deer the first week of December right here in Cali. It's on Santa Catalina Island. Just got back from that fully guided hunt and had a great time. Best bargain around and deer everywhere. Steep tough terrain though and a real tough drag out over very steep canyons. If you ever get the opportunity, that is if they get any openings, you should try it. They fill up fast and give prior hunters first opportunity to book. Took us a couple of years to get called from their wait list. Economy must have created the openings.

http://www.catalinahunting.com/

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Always wanted to do the

Always wanted to do the Catalina hunt, but too pricey for me just for a little meat.

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