27 replies [Last post]
Offline
Joined: 01/15/2007
Posts: 30
Wolves Again!

Oh Boy,

Here we go again,
Can someone explain to me (and please assume I am a 2 year old) how the province that supplied your wolves and from where they continue to push south (BRITISH COLUMBIA) has the most awsome Public Land hunting anywhere and also has thousands of wolves.
The OTC, Public Land Hunting for Moose, Mule Deer , WT Deer, Elk, Goats Bighorn and Stone Sheep is in a league of its own, even though there are thousands of wolves too. Plus plenty of cougar, blackies and Grizzlies.
You guys just gotta learn to live with the competition. Hopefully you will be able to hunt them soon. My freezer is still full.
BTW.......they are an awsome trophy themselves and much harder to get fair chase than any Bull Elk I ever met.

exbiologist's picture
Offline
Moderator
Location: Colorado
Joined: 09/19/2008
Posts: 2399
Wolves Again!

Well said TZ.

I lived and hunted in SW Montana after the reintroduction. The Northern Yellowstone elk population went from 20,000 to 7,000 in 5 years, but has remained steady at about 7,000 ever since. Its all about carrying capacities, alternate prey sources and balance.
Can wolves eat themselves out of house and home? Yes, and it has occurred on Alaskan islands on an experimental basis in an area without an alternate prey source. Kind of interesting really, there were only deer on the island and in 5 years all the deer were gone, the wolves ate each other until there was only one left, who then starved to death. That cannot happen in open populations.
Anyway, that's not my point. When wolves move into your area, it's because there is game to hunt there, so you shouldn't be looking to leave because wolves are there. They know a heck of a lot more than we do about elk hunting.
One effect that wolves have had (at least on the Yellowstone Herd) is that it has caused the elk to group up in larger herds. There was a study done to prove this (Creel 2007). This does make hunting them harder, as they are not evenly distributed throughout their habitat the way hunters would prefer. If you get into them, you'll find 100 elk. But you darn sure won't find many singles and pairs nicely spread out through your hunting grounds.
But i don't want to restart another "I hate wolves" thread.
That said, I'm not looking forward to them setting up shop in Colorado.

Offline
Location: north Idaho, USA
Joined: 08/13/2007
Posts: 131
Wolves Again!

It's real simple T Z. They hunt them and they kill them. They are managed like all other large carnivores. When a population gets out of control they shoot them from aircraft and manage the problem. This is all the sportsmen of Idaho, Montana and Wyoming are asking for. Let us deal with the problem.
If you don't believe the wolves are a problem and would like to hear them howl a night in your backyard here is your chance. The people of Idaho have a great deal for you. Take all you want, their free for the asking.

http://www.lmtribune.com/story/northwest/31691/

When wolves are forced on the state of Colorado and the Elk herds begin to be impacted, I think this issue will get more support from the general public. Until then Idaho Fish and Game will be happy to take your $500.00 in hunting and tag fees for you to come and sit around the campfire and talk about the good days. Before the Wolves.
Rogie

Offline
Location: north Idaho, USA
Joined: 08/13/2007
Posts: 131
Wolves Again!

Okay, that link requires my login. Sorry. Here is the article.

BOISE - Sen. Gary Schroeder, R-Moscow, wants Idaho's excess wolf population offered up to any other states that will take them.

Schroeder has introduced a bill that would require the Idaho Fish and Game Department to contact its counterparts in other states, "soliciting interest in the transfer of wolves." If any respond favorably, the wolves would be captured and transported, with the other state picking up the tab.

"If any other states want them, great. We can ship them a bunch, they'll multiply, then that state can share our concerns about wolves," Schroeder said Monday, during a hearing before the Senate Resources and Environment Committee, which he chairs.

Schroeder said the primary intent of the bill was to forestall critics who oppose killing wolves. If the state succeeds in scheduling a wolf hunting season this fall, he wants to be able to say the state offered, but nobody wanted them.

"All this is is a strategy bill," he said. "First, we ask if anybody wants them. If they don't, then that's the answer why we need to kill some - because we have problem wolves that we need to manage, and no one wants them."

Wolves are responsible for up to 75 percent of the big game mortality in some regions, Schroeder said. The state demonstrated its ability to manage other game populations successfully, and should have the same opportunity with wolves.

Sen. Monty Pearce, R-New Plymouth, suggested the wolves be offered to individuals as well as other states.

"We could end up shipping wolves all over the country," he said.

Schroeder's committee unanimously recommended approval of the bill, with Schroeder abstaining from the vote.

Colorado, Utah, California Maybe???? You think this is not a problem give it a try. Just remember they will be "endangered species" in your states until they are "reestablished". The feds will let you know when that is. Oh, and then you can begin spending millions in court to defend the lawsuits. That's tax money you paid that the state could have used to improve wild life habitat.

What state are you from TangoZulu?

Rogie

Offline
Joined: 01/15/2007
Posts: 30
Wolves Again!

Lets just start by saying I have spent my entire life as a hunter competing with wolves. Non the less I have been lucky enough to take many species of Big Game on my own, OTC and on public land.
This includes several Dall sheep, Stone sheep, Elk, Moose, Caribou, Whitetail and Mulies. As far as preditors go I have tagged many Blackies, several Grizzlies, Wolverine, lynx, coyoyes.
Rogie you will be happy to know I have even killed a half dozen wolves.
I am neither a wolf lover or hater.......just a hunter who enjoys the wilderness as it was meant to be. Preditors,............ including man, belong.
Over the past 50 years or so, some states have both eliminated predation of the elk herds by wolves, and instituded winter feeding programs to keep elk herds at an unrealistic level. (To me the Spider Bull is just another coddled ranch bull, without the fence.) This no doubt has skewed what a "normal" elk population is suppose to be.
Have wolves ever "spoiled" a hunt for me? By your defination I guess so. I have hunted elk on the same mountain for years and have taken several 300+ bulls off it. Yet some nights while sitting by the fire and listening to elk music, I've heard the arrival of my 4 legged companions and I know I may as well sleep late tomorrow. Or just maybe I will get up early with my daughter and try to show her one of the wilds most facinating animals.The wolves will move the elk out, but they will be back in a few days, and if 1 gets eaten, so be it.. Most of my fellow hunters feel the same............except for the outfitters who only see "their" elk being eaten. For them its about dollars. That being said, wolves give them a great way to excuse low productivity for their clients.
I find it unfortunate that so many of my fellow hunters talk such garbage as SSS. We as hunters are supposed to be the real protectors of the wilderness. (As apposed to the Disney crowd.) It must be true because we have been saying so since Teddy Rosevelt., now lets prove it with our actions. Do it for your kids.
I know it will be a few more years before you can hunt wolves, but the day will come. Hopefully you will all get the chance to collect one of these fantastic animals. Taken Fair chase there is none tougher, these guys are smart.
OK .................you can start kicking me now.

Keep it Fair Chase

Offline
Location: Idaho
Joined: 06/01/2004
Posts: 1068
Wolves Again!

Good conversation ...

Offline
Location: north Idaho, USA
Joined: 08/13/2007
Posts: 131
Wolves Again!

Dude.....
What we are asking for in the state of Idaho is what you have. I'm guessing you live to my north by your statements. You did not read anywhere in my posts a call for mass extermination. I think that the wolves have a place here. But they cannot go unchecked. You know as well as I that these animals cannot be over hunted. It took poisoning to remove them in the thirties. Trapping and hunting made little or no impact. Every single Sportsmen Combo license issued in the state of Idaho includes a Mountain Lion tag and a Bear tag. We still have bears and lions.
This fight is about more then the wolves. If the anti's can drag this fight out it draws resource ($) and time from the agencies that we pay to protect all of the wildlife in our state. If they can stop you from hunting the wolf what will be next. Hey guess what the Elk herds are threatened, I guess they need federal protection and on and on and on.
Please allow me to be clear. The fight is not weather or not there will be wolves. We lost that one. The fight is about the right to manage these animals on a state level in conjunction with all of the wildlife.
You seem to be a fairly prolific killer in your own right based on your trophy list. I'm very surprised you cannot see this issue from a pro hunting / pro management perspective and support the need to control a population that has been allowed or even encouraged to grow at an unsustainable rate.

Let me get in a plug for a supportive web site that presents this issue better then I can. Go to

http://www.saveelk.com

I understand that this doesn't really effect you T Z as a Canadian but as a sportsmen we cold use your support.
Rogie

Offline
Joined: 01/15/2007
Posts: 30
Wolves Again!

Hiah Rogie,

I admit I mentioned your Namein my post, but I wasn't trying to address my comments specifically your way.
I certainly do not accuse you of trying to eliminate wolves, but I think its pretty common knowledge on this site (but different threads) that many sportsmen do feel threatened by wolves. I am simply trying to pass on my own expieriences in this reguard.
As far as being a hunter goes I'm just an average Joe who has been lucky due to where and when I grew up. I am no better than anyone else, just wanted to explain that I have been hunting awhile and have some expierience. I am 54.
I can say I pass up far more trophy animals now adays, as killing is simply not too important. I do hope to pass on to my young daughters my love of hunting and the outdoors by guiding them to their own Big Bulls one day. I have no reason to believe the wolves will stop this from happening. Though anti-hunting groups, poor hunting ethics, hunting leases, canned hunting and poaching may.
My Mountain still has plenty of Elk and Wolves sharing it, for the 50 weeks a year I am not there. Just like the last few thousand years.
I realize you cannot hunt your wolves yet, so perhaps the situation is somewhat different. That said there are far more wolves in BC on any given day than in all the Western States combined, so we do and are competing with them.
I think we have seen the end of any aireal wolf kill programs............seems casteration is the trend these days. They are here to stay.
I was born and raised in Alberta and lived and hunted Alberta, Yukon and BC. I will always support you and all honest ethical hunters.

Offline
Location: Idaho
Joined: 06/01/2004
Posts: 1068
Wolves Again!
rogie wrote:
... The fight is not weather or not there will be wolves. We lost that one. The fight is about the right to manage these animals on a state level ...

Totally ... we had wolves before this whole thing even started. They were rare, secretive (and quite smaller). Yes, the elk in Idaho enjoyed decades of plush management practices, and now they are learning to get their $#!# together with regard to this new, bigger, protected predator. This issue is Idahoans being self governed or Idahoans being governed by (non-representatives) on the other side of the continent who want un-checked control over hunting/firearms with no regard to the impact on local economy and freedoms. Wolves is just one of the `playing fields' in my opinion, and not the only playing field.

Offline
Location: Canada
Joined: 12/26/2006
Posts: 323
Wolves Again!

The number one problem you have with wolf management, besides the obvious anti-hunting organizations, is the US Fish and Wildlife Service having the final say over the states in game management. The USFWS has a way of adversely affecting countries around the world and their ability to manage wildlife and generate funds to pay for conservation objectives through the consumptive use of wildlife resources.

American hunters are THE fuel for the global outfitting industry. It does not matter whether it is an African or Asian country or your neighbor next door, Canada, decisions on importation by the USFWS adversely affect the rest of us as is shown by the recent load of manure concerning the status of the polar bear and the ban on legally taken sport trophies. The same issue applies to wood bison in the various huntable herds in the Yukon and the Northwest Territories which are expanding their ranges and doing very well.

The USFWS and their decisions that prohibit importation of certain sport trophies, adversely affects other countries abilities to allow the species in question to generate funds for its own management and to give the animals worth to the local indigenous people. Certainly there are instances where the importation of sport trophies from certain countries is not a good idea, but increasingly decisions by the USFWS are based less on whether sound wildlife management practices are being used than on politics and individuals covering their collective asses and job positions.

I have listed a couple of examples of how the USFWS adversely affects other countries, their game management and the well being of their indigenous peoples and rural communities. With the wolf management issue in the western states it is easy to draw a parallel. In the long run the political games that are being played will be to the detriment of the wolves if the reins are not handed over to the state wildlife agencies in the near future. Continued protection only increases the resentment held by many towards these apex predators and will increase the practice of SSS.

I am no wolf hater. I pretty much fall in line with TZ as I have spent my life around wolves and they have always been a part of the wilderness environment that I enjoy. However, having said that, they are one more piece of the overall management plan in any given area and need to be managed properly.

The wolf subject is a touchy one and many people have strong opinions about how to manage these animals. All too often the opinions are to the extreme in one direction or the other and as with most things the truth is somewhere in the middle.

Related Forum Threads You Might Like

ThreadThread StarterRepliesLast Updated
my favorite subject, cool footagesoules2007303/20/2009 16:51 pm
To delist or not?Chuck-n-Alaska801/01/2011 11:31 am
Interaction between elk and wolveswisconsingirl109/06/2003 13:37 pm
Wolves: Idahowapiti whacker609/01/2010 17:25 pm
Man Pleads Guilty to Killing Three Wolvesjaybe503/24/2011 10:22 am