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cowgal's picture
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White Moose

The "white" will not flourish and was not meant to flourish in nature. Whether elk, bear or moose, being white is not a good thing. I personally do not believe a white herd should be encouraged in any species.

I don't see why they should be protected, even though they are white, genetically they are still the same species.

Location: Foleyet / Ottawa
Joined: 02/12/2005
Posts: 20
White animals in nature ..

"The "white" will not flourish and was not meant to flourish in nature."

- And how would you explain such animals as polar bears, artic foxes, artic hares, beluga whales, ptarmigan, etc ...

These animals are only 200 miles from the realm of polar bears... is it really that far fetched ? I can see that white deer in florida would be bad, but white deer in northern alberta would seem to be OK.

And out of curiosity, what would the link look like if we ever were to see a moose which is white in the winter and brown in the summer. Could you positively identify it at 200 yards before you pulled the trigger? And after the scientists did the genetic testing to prove that it was just a defect, could you really be 100% positive that they were right in light of all the scientific blunders in the last 50 years ...

I guess the question is, do you believe that evolution is frozen in time?

Might this strain be the one with the same characteristics which have made snow shoe rabbits so plentiful in Northern Ontario? White in the winter.. dark in the summer ... We'll never know if we loose the strain ...

Joel

Your thoughts ...

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Location: Montana
Joined: 02/13/2005
Posts: 409
White Moose

is it just me or are you tryin to b funny?Those animals you mentioned are white dor a reason,they live in a white enviroment all year round.....duhhhh.If moose start living in an arctic enviroment tyhem your little expirement might have some merit,until then its a stupid idea to mess with nature and try to promote this white strain,how do you know its not just a genetic defect that goes along with a low level of white bloods cells in the animals blood stream wich leads to a early death?Maybe we should try to have kids with epilepse because they are different and therfore should be protected and montored?I would be more than happy to eliminjate one of the white freaks from the genepool.most hunters would have no problem shooting a white bull moose and many would love to.Is this some kind of greenpeace fishing expidition?

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Re: White animals in nature ..
joel@whitemoose.ca wrote:
- And how would you explain such animals as polar bears, artic foxes, artic hares, beluga whales, ptarmigan, etc ...

Some species are white due to their environment, meaning snow or the arctic. In that case, yes white is good, since they blend into their natural environment.

Quote:
These animals are only 200 miles from the realm of polar bears... is it really that far fetched ? I can see that white deer in florida would be bad, but white deer in northern alberta would seem to be OK.

Do the white moose live in an entirely white environment? Do they have their young in the snow? Most likely not, so I'd say being white for the moose is not beneficial.

Quote:
And out of curiosity, what would the link look like if we ever were to see a moose which is white in the winter and brown in the summer. Could you positively identify it at 200 yards before you pulled the trigger? And after the scientists did the genetic testing to prove that it was just a defect, could you really be 100% positive that they were right in light of all the scientific blunders in the last 50 years ...

If scientists find via genetic testing that its a defect or simply recessive genes, I don't see how we can argue with that. I'm also guessing the scientists will find that a moose is a moose whether brown or white.

Quote:
I guess the question is, do you believe that evolution is frozen in time?

How can this be evolution?

Quote:
Might this strain be the one with the same characteristics which have made snow shoe rabbits so plentiful in Northern Ontario? White in the winter.. dark in the summer ... We'll never know if we loose the strain ...

I don't see the similarity. Sorry...

Location: Foleyet / Ottawa
Joined: 02/12/2005
Posts: 20
A quick reply ...

"Those animals you mentioned are white dor a reason,they live in a white enviroment all year round.....duhhhh"
- Actually artic hares live with snow for about 8 months a year .. but stay white all year .. same as ptarmigan .. but close enough ..

I guess the 6 to 7 months a year of snow in N.Ontario just won't cut it to sustain white animals ....

"Maybe we should try to have kids with epilepse because they are different and therfore should be protected and montored" - Is being white really that latent of a defect ... we have white people and black people ... yet no one is suggesting that in this context, being white is like being epileptic ...

"most hunters would have no problem shooting a white bull moose and many would love to."
- Have to disagree with the statement that "most" hunters would have no problem ... just knowing many hunters who have passed these guys up, and others i've found in other parts of Canada who've done the same thing .. but i'm sure that the same guys that would love to shoot a black rhino would love to shoot a white moose ..

"Is this some kind of greenpeace fishing expidition?"
- Haven't actually contacted the animal activist groups ... but just so you know, I'm an avid hunter and fisherman ... check out my personal photo gallery at the following link .

http://whitemoose.ca/AuthorProfileJoel/AuthorProfile3.html

"Some species are white due to their environment, meaning snow or the arctic. In that case, yes white is good, since they blend into their natural environment. "
- Again, it is snow covered in N.Ontario for 6 to 7 months a year ... It's only snow covered in the artic for 7 to 8 months a year ... Is that extra month really the issue you're clinging to?

"Do the white moose live in an entirely white environment? Do they have their young in the snow? Most likely not, so I'd say being white for the moose is not beneficial."
- The calves are born in the spring, and I'll give you this one, they are disadvantaged to brown calves regarding camo ... but if wolves and bears hunt primarily with their noses rather than their eyes, is it a large disadvantage? And come winter, when its too cold for wolves to hunt with their nose, and their forced to hunt by sight alone, would a white calf be better or worse off than a brown calf?

Any idea when artic hares have their litter. I'm assuming right around ice melt so the babies can eat the fresh grass ...

"If scientists find via genetic testing that its a defect or simply recessive genes, I don't see how we can argue with that."
- The world's still flat... install lead pipes for drinking water ... nuclear radiation doesn't hurt people ... install asbestos in your babies room ... make sure to play with mercury next time you get into a science lab ... etc .. etc ...

"I'm also guessing the scientists will find that a moose is a moose whether brown or white."
- We'll see ... this seems to be more gray than it appears ... on one token, they would seem to be the same as the kermode bears of BC. .. on the other hand, what exactly is the difference between a black duck and a mallard ... 2 species ... different color patterns ... sucessful to interbreed ...

"How can this be evolution?"
- White animals in snow covered areas ... seems to be self explanatory to me ...

"Joel said : Might this strain be the one with the same characteristics which have made snow shoe rabbits so plentiful in Northern Ontario? White in the winter.. dark in the summer ... We'll never know if we loose the strain ...
Reply : I don't see the similarity. Sorry..."

Your thoughts on these pic's of a bull from this strain .. taken 3 years ago .. 20 miles from my home ...

Notice the apparent color change?

Joel

http://whitemoose.ca/AuthorProfileJoel/AuthorProfile3.html

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White Moose

that moose isnt all white,must be a genetic defect from the whitemoose genepool huh?You really amaze me you ask the dumbest questions about nature and you call urself a hunter and outdoorsman?Exsplain the white moose in Idaho,the have about 3-4 months of snow.Ohhh Yhaaaa thats right the ones in Idaho are fake and its a big conspiracy,they are actually using your pics of the white moose in order to gain protection for the non-existant herd of white moose that arnt in Idaho.right?Why do you start a thread asking peoples opinion on a subject and then argue about thier opinion because its not the same as yours?Do you have a point?

Location: Foleyet / Ottawa
Joined: 02/12/2005
Posts: 20
thoughts...

"that moose isnt all white,must be a genetic defect from the whitemoose genepool huh? "

- I guess that just all depends on your ability to predict the future ... If a moose were ever to take the form of being white in the winter, and dark in the summer, would would the intermediate form look like ? I would have to think that it would look something like that bull ... but that's just my opinion...

" Exsplain the white moose in Idaho,the have about 3-4 months of snow.Ohhh Yhaaaa thats right the ones in Idaho are fake and its a big conspiracy"

- Just said that the pic's that came out of Idaho look very similar to the ones taken from N.Ontario, and were in the same time frame ... and i've yet to come across other pic's from Idaho of white moose... I would think that if there were a couple there, the the fish and wildlife department should be able to produce some documentation ... I've seen the famous 3 pic's ... ever run across other documentation?

"Why do you start a thread asking peoples opinion on a subject and then argue about thier opinion because its not the same as yours?Do you have a point?"
- I'm trying to pull out all the arguements regarding the subject, so that when it really matters, I'm prepared for the questions ... and also, I'm interested to hear about other animals like these guys in other parts of the world ... And the point of the arguement is that it gives me a chance to explore new issues that I wouldn't be able to think of otherwise ... that's why I'm asking for everyone's thoughts ...

And if person A states opinion X, and we debate it, and person A changes his mind to opinion Y which is more in line with my thoughts, then I know that the arguement works ... and if it works repeated times, then it would seem to be verging towards the truth ...

SO YES, YOUR OPINIONS ARE RESPECTED ... though I may not agree with them .... but at least let me draw them out to show you the consequences of your opinions ... which gives me a chance to see how the arguements hold in water ...

Joel

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White Moose

well u are not going to change my opinion to be more in line with yours so this is a pointless discusion if that was they purpose of the thread.You are probably doing more damage to these animals than good because you just let every hunter in N.America know where they need to go if they want to shoot a white moose,THANX!!

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White Moose

The definition of a species is clear. If a pair can breed and produce young that can replicate themselves, the original pair are in the same species. Apperance does not define a species.

I'm troubled by the assertion that one member of a species should be protected over another member of the same species, because it has a genetic difference that people find aesthetically pleasing. By this logic, it would be ok to limit/stop hunting on a hypothecial buck that matured rapidly and was able to produce a B&C/P&Y contending rack in just a year or two; under the pretext that we need to give the guy a few years to produce offspring for "all hunters everywhere". As a thought experiment, would we also protect the female off-spring of this hypothetical buck?

It is not obvious to me that the moose pictured are albinos. There does appear to be some color change going on. It could in fact be as you say Joel, that you have moose that are going through a color phase change much like hare and wolves. There very well may be a selective advantage to these color phase changes in your area. Either way, I don't think they deserve protection because of this mutation.

Hunting white moose (albino or not) is not the same as "eating the last female trout". Given the degree of homology for color phase change in mammals, it is reasonable to assume that by giving time (10, 1000, 10000, 100000, 1000000 years) and selective pressure in the absence of hunting the white moose would appear from non-white stock.

The deeper seated believe is that the white moose is beautiful and should not be destroyed. If this is true, we should not destroy or hunt any game because we know not what it is capable of producing. Killing one normal moose may be stopping a potential progenitor to a whole line of undreamed of specialized moose.

Protection should be along species lines and thats it. To go further muddies the conservation water beyond reason or value.

Location: Foleyet / Ottawa
Joined: 02/12/2005
Posts: 20
thoughts..

Bit masher,

good points ... i'll come back to them when i've had a chance to think about it ...

Just out of curiosity, how do you feel about the protection measures afforded for the Kermode Bears of BC?

I'll also throw up the Alaska white moose regs when I find em again, but they basically say that they should be protected for viewing pleasure... basically worth more to the public alive than in a freezer ...

Joel

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