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redrider's picture
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what rifle on first pig hunt this year?

Sorry fellas but this topic won't keep going if you can't reel it back in and cut the insults and foul language.

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Location: Virginia
Joined: 10/14/2007
Posts: 108
what rifle on first pig hunt this year?

Sorry guys, but I couldn't sit back and watch this argument anymore without commenting.

First and foremost, the minimum calibers for DG in Africa represent minimum energy requirements and bullet diameters that have been determined to capably handle large dangerous thick-skinned animals such as elephant, rhino and cape buffalo. In my hunting circles, a .375 H&H is a realtive middle weight, and not a cannon by any stretch.

Penetration is a product of a number of items, including importantly, sectional density. A minimum good SD is 300, and I can tell you that a 200 grain .429 caliber bullet has very low sectional density. A balistically challenged round like a .444 or any of the various handgun rounds, need a heavy bullet to penetrate well.

Before you attack me and call me a know-nothing, I do quite a bit of handgun hunting and handgun rounds are definitely balistically challenged. The way to get a round that is travelling at a leisurely 1400 fps to penetrate to the vitals on a tough animal like a hog, you need a heavy bullet for momentum -- not a light expanding projectile. Hence, I shoot 400 grain hardcast pills in my Casull, 320 grainers in my .44 mags, and 440 grain bullets in my .475 Linebaugh.

So, where are the photos of the buff? Would love to see them! A once-in-a lifetime trophy that comes to you like a gift would warrent photographs in my humble opinion.

Now, I'm not trying to start an argument here, and you can see that this is my first post, but I felt the need to weigh in.

Don't shoot me please! lol

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Location: Virginia
Joined: 10/14/2007
Posts: 108
what rifle on first pig hunt this year?

Back to the original question -- which weapons this year. At the beginning of the year I used a .30-06 and a 12 gauge with slugs when I hunted in Bosnia. First hunt back in the States I used my .338 win mag and my .454 Casull.............

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Location: Summit, IL
Joined: 10/22/2006
Posts: 706
what rifle on first pig hunt this year?

hehehe No worries Whitworth, I only attack when attacked, While I do agree with you on the sectional density of pistol bullets I do have to disagree on their usability. Many reports say that the .444 is useless against large game, yet why is it used VERY well on grizzly? Ever seen what a bullet has to get through on a grizz? And obviously it works well and holds up on thick skinned animals as MANY have attested to. People tend to overestimate the toughness of a lot of dangerous game simply because of their ferocity and tenationess. Skull penetration is absolutely the only worry id have with a .444 200 grain on any game. THATS where the sectional density would come into play. Capes dont have Kevlar for skin or steel for ribs. They are just as vulnerable to a shot as any other weapon with enough gumption to penetrate. Im not saying at ALL that the .444 is the perfect weapon for Capes but to say that someone is an idiot for using it is ludicrous and completely uneducated in its capabilities. And to flat out call someone a liar when they do not know that person at all or what their capabilities or education is is not only insulting but it shows their own ignorence. Anyone that knows a dang thing about hunting knows that bullet placement is more key to downing any animal than anything else. Can you kill a deer with a .22 short? Sure can. My great gramps used to do it all the time. Should you? NOPE for one its illegal and for 2 its not the most ethical thing in the world either. People can sit and have these arguments all day every day and still not come to the simple agreement that not everyones experiance is what the sports writers and magazine editors print. The only North American big game animal I havnt taken is a Moose and thats simply because I havnt drawn a tag yet and I refuse to pay those outragious prices on guides and such in places that you dont have to draw like Alaska. I MEAT hunt not trophy anymore. While in my younger more uneducated days I did trophy hunt and was very successful at it, It finaly sunk in, someting my great grandpappy used to say all the time, "HORNS DONT EVEN MAKE A GOOD SOUP SON". The old .444 has taken MANY large elk, 2 Grizz (back in trophy days cause ewwww @ the meat) carabou, deer, black bear, 2 mountain lions, (didnt know they were actually supposed to be good eating back then so Ill have to hunt one again to see) Lord knows what all else.

As far as Pics go Whitworth the only one I have is after skinning and the bullet retrieved from the offside skin. As I said this was on a preserve hunt a few years back not in Africa as I dont trophy hunt and he thought the meat was supposed to be good on them (boy was he WRONG Yuk! ) Ill try to find them later on this infernal machine if they havnt pissadeard in the 2 reformats since then. Killed 3 russians while I was up there (paid fer them but dang good eatin and worth it) and had a blast!!! Lotta snow and ice and busted my dang bum HARD (embarrasing as hell with 3 old football buddies there heehawing) but was still fun. Anyway sorry folks if I came off crass on other post but I get really riled up when called a liar and aint much pee's me off worse.

JackHamr''s picture
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Joined: 10/15/2007
Posts: 54
what rifle on first pig hunt this year?

I've lurked around here a bit before joinin' , and see this , and have to comment on it ..
First off , I have been to Africa four times , and have 10 cape buffs under my belt ...
The 375 was set as a minimum for Dangerous Game many years ago .. At the time it was the most potent mid bore available .. Politics being what they are , and Africa being what it is , it is a hard thing to change .. But I know many countries probably wish it was a .400 minimum , and some have changed to that ..
A PH would much rather see you with a 375 you can shoot , than sumpthin' larger that you cannot shoot ..
I have see a buff drop to one well placed shot from a 375 , and I have seen one take six 458 Lotts and five 600 NE's , all 11 shots were kill shots .. Buff are tough ..
I am not calling you a liar , but , the 200 grain soft in a 444 ( a thin jacketed 44 magnum pistol bullet ) at 150 yards penetrating that far is a hard one to swallow ..

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Location: Summit, IL
Joined: 10/22/2006
Posts: 706
what rifle on first pig hunt this year?

Buff Caped out,,, Like I said this wasnt in AFRICA,,,, How many times must this be said? The 3 lil pigs too on here if this posts. I did have pics of the recoverd bullet on this comp as well but cant find them yet. In a hidden file somewher but that lil bitty 200 grain thin jacketed pill kept around 90% of its weight and did a fine job on the buff. Believe what you wish. Experiance what you wish. I know what I did and I know what it did thats all that really matters to me personally.

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JackHamr''s picture
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Joined: 10/15/2007
Posts: 54
what rifle on first pig hunt this year?

Well sir with all due respect if the pic you posted is the buff you refer to shooting with the 444 200 grain bullet , then yeah thats very possible ..

However I ask you to look at your first post where you mention the buff , and you clearly state " cape buffalo " ..

The critter in yur pic is not a cape buffalo ..

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Location: Virginia
Joined: 10/14/2007
Posts: 108
what rifle on first pig hunt this year?

Looks like a water buffalo of some sort, actually..........

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Location: austin and amarillo texas
Joined: 07/21/2007
Posts: 195
what rifle on first pig hunt this year?

Like I said earlier, a true "best seller". If that's a cape buffalo, then at this moment, there are pigs flying in a frozen hell. That looks more like something off my ranch than a real cape buff. Whitworth is probably right. It's some sort of itty bitty water buffalo. Judging by the size of that head, it wasn't even comparable to an american bison in size.

I believe my point has been made (i.e. your story was a dramatization full of hyperbole and b.s.). Clearly, you did not kill a cape buffalo, so the caliber that you used is irrelevant. That said, the .444 marlin is a great cal for american bison, and perhaps for other forms of buffalo, but despite your abilities as a "marksman" my friend, you won't find a reputabe PH out there that will allow you to hunt true cape buff with a .444 marlin. neener!

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Location: Virginia
Joined: 10/14/2007
Posts: 108
what rifle on first pig hunt this year?

One anatomical anomoly about the cape buffalo that the uninitiated may not know. They have overlapping ribs that are really tough to punch through with lousy bullet construction (not saying that a bad bullet won't punch through, it just may not hold together). If the bullet fails on the ribs, then it may not reach the vitals, and then you're in a whole 'lotta s%$@*t......... This is why the PH carries the big gun......

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