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Torturing Democracy

http://torturingdemocracy.org/
Three part PBS Video
Gitmo and it's aftermath in partnership with Center for Constitutional Rights
http://hrc.berkeley.edu/pdfs/Gtmo-Aftermath.pdf

expatriate's picture
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Torturing Democracy

I posted this in another thread, but it bears mention here, too. It's part of a documentary as well. Sleep deprivation, physical and mental abuse...the horror...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=viiz3oCgL0Q&feature=related

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Torturing Democracy

Can't comment on the video itself can you. Vast difference between the vid you showed isn't it. I think Bush and a lot of fellows will have difficulty traveling anywhere. Too much danger of arrest. Look what happened to Pinochet, another buddy of yours.

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Torturing Democracy

Since when did I say Pinochet was my "buddy?" Show me one post where I said anything at all about Pinochet -- any post at all in the six years I've been on this forum.

You can't do it -- so knock off the theatrics. Do you think lying improves your credibility? Oh, yeah...you're a liberal.

You obviously don't know squat about Pinochet, because if you did you'd know that under his rule over 1,100 Chilean citizens "disappeared" and nearly 2,100 more were executed or suffered death by torture due to political differences.

Show me one example in the past 8 years where an American citizen has been abducted and "disappeared" by the Bush administration, or where a citizen has been executed or suffered death by torture. Your chances of that are about as good as finding a post from me defending Pinochet.

And by the way, the "Center for Constitutional Rights" is about as objective as the John Birch Society. It sure seems to care about evil corporations and considers government restrictions on travel to Cuba to be an abuse of power -- but I can't find where they care at all about the "fairness doctrine" or 2nd Amendment rights. Based on their website, their bread and butter appears to be filing lawsuits for terrorists. But yet I can't find anything in there where they advocated on behalf of all those law abiding people in New Orleans that had their firearms arbitrarily confiscated by the government.

I've noticed that you can generally identify the left's agenda by how they name things. For example, names that involve "fair" generally aren't, those that involve "choice" reduce choices, and names that include "rights" are only interested in advocating their rights and suppressing yours.

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Torturing Democracy

So you find the video to be true as well as the accompanying report?

Pinochet as well as you believe murder and torture are ok right? Or do you now reject murder and torture? Or are they only ok if the subject isn't a US citizen, or are they only ok if the subject is of a different religion from you? Just wondering, I have a hard time determining who it's ok to murder and torture. Can we murder and torture Canadien citizens or only torture? What about other Euro democracies? Or is it only Europeans of Muslim faith. I have a hard time keeping the parameters of murderers and torturers straight. Confusing.

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Torturing Democracy

No, I put no faith whatsoever in the video or report -- I think I covered that in my comments about CCR.

You're still tryinig to pigeonhole me by forming arguments based on skewed premises -- if I engage on your argument, I have to accept your premise. That's generally a sign of somebody that can't form valid arguments and thinks he has to resort to slight of hand to try to pull something off.

Your definition of "murder and torture" are way off base, as is your delusional analogy between Pinochet and Bush. I consider sawing off someone's head while he's on his knees with his hands to be tied behind his back to be murder. I consider strapping explosives to a child to be murder. Your definition of "murder" seems to be any death that occurs in any activity that can be connected to someone you want to blame in any way.

Likewise, your definition of "torture" appears to be anything that makes the recipient uncomfortable -- at which point I refer to the Navy SEAL video.

There's also a big difference between a POW camp in Gitmo and a head of state abducting, torturing, and killing his own citizens over political differences.

You can't accuse me of condoning bamboo under fingernails because I think it's OK to deprive someone of sleep to pressure them or break them down, and until you can come up with representative examples I suggest you quit babbling.

CVC
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Torturing Democracy
civetcat wrote:
So you find the video to be true as well as the accompanying report?

Pinochet as well as you believe murder and torture are ok right? Or do you now reject murder and torture? Or are they only ok if the subject isn't a US citizen, or are they only ok if the subject is of a different religion from you? Just wondering, I have a hard time determining who it's ok to murder and torture. Can we murder and torture Canadien citizens or only torture? What about other Euro democracies? Or is it only Europeans of Muslim faith. I have a hard time keeping the parameters of murderers and torturers straight. Confusing.

Murder and, in most cases, torture is wrong, but if we are going to be honest so is allowing an aborted baby to die on a table when they could be saved. Remember, Obama opposed legislation that would have required a doctor to save the baby's life.

You support Obama so it is safe to assume that you support letting babies that could be saved left to die on hospital tables?

Actually, I don't believe you support letting babies die - I only post this to show you how your style of debate can be used against you and how ridiculous it and you are.

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Torturing Democracy

I have my own ideas of what constitutes "murder" and "torture," but I'm still trying to wrap my brain around Civet's reference to "semi auto converted carbines" from another thread.

Just what is a "semi-auto converted carbine," Civet? You still haven't answered that one, and I'm trying to understand the thought processes you use to define the issues.

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Torturing Democracy

CVC I think if you look further into the aborted baby issue you'll find the bill was bogus in the first place. Doctors by law can't kill a live born baby, and actually partial birth abortion doesn't happen. It's a graphic description to stir things up. There are only two facilities in the US that perform third trimester abortions.

Expat I dont' like the name assault rifle nor do a lot of gun freaks. Call it what you will it's a short barreled rifle, it's semi auto, and it's the semi auto version of a fully auto rifle. I get a kick out of people spending thousands on them in any case, to each their own.

Back on topic supreme court rules on 5 gitmo prisoners today.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/21/us/21guantanamo.html?partner=permalink...
"a federal judge ruled Thursday that five Algerian men were held unlawfully for nearly seven years and ordered their release."

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5ijzxvcCLxSW32CjyDNrxhS... UN says Euro to take 100 gitmo prisoners.

"The U.N.'s torture investigator said Thursday that European countries should take in those Guantanamo inmates who cannot be sent home when the U.S.-run prison closes."

CVC
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Torturing Democracy

Partial birth abortions don't occur? Does that mean that Wikipedia is wrong?

Here is a description of a partial birth abortion from their site.

Care to admit you're wrong? I am growing weary of proving you wrong or untruthful. I think I 'll take a break from doing it.

Intact D&X surgery
Methods of abortion
Part of the abortion series
Surgical
Vacuum
aspiration
Dilation and
evacuation
Dilation and
curettage
Intact D&X
Hysterotomy
Instillation
Menstrual
extraction

Medical
Mifepristone
Misoprostol

Under the Intact D&X method, the largest part of the fetus (the head) is reduced in diameter to allow vaginal passage. According to the American Medical Association, this procedure has four main elements.[8] First, the cervix is dilated. Second, the fetus is positioned for a footling breech. Third, the fetus is partially pulled out, starting with the feet, as far as the neck. Fourth, the brain and material inside the skull is evacuated, so that a dead but otherwise intact fetus can be delivered via the vagina.

Usually, preliminary procedures are performed over a period of two to three days, to gradually dilate the cervix using laminaria tents (sticks of seaweed which absorb fluid and swell). Sometimes drugs such as synthetic pitocin are used to induce labor. Once the cervix is sufficiently dilated, the doctor uses an ultrasound and forceps to grasp the fetus' leg. The fetus is turned to a breech position, if necessary, and the doctor pulls one or both legs out of the birth canal, causing what is referred to by some people as the 'partial birth' of the fetus. The doctor subsequently extracts the rest of the fetus, usually without the aid of forceps, leaving only the head still inside the birth canal. An incision is made at the base of the skull, scissors are inserted into the incision and opened to widen the opening,[9] and then a suction catheter is inserted into the opening. The brain is suctioned out, which causes the skull to collapse and allows the fetus to pass more easily through the birth canal. The placenta is removed and the uterine wall is vacuum aspirated using a cannula.[10]

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Torturing Democracy
Quote:
Partial birth abortions don't occur?

Not in the US anymore, as I said there are only two facilities performing third trimester, Tiller in Kansas and Hern in Colorado, both inject with poison prior to birth. If you know different please let me know. Weird subject to get technical about. Most pro lifers are only pre birth. No one cares about you after you're born, if you're unlucky might as well get tortured and murdered. Strange way to look at things in my book.

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