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Location: Montana
Joined: 03/09/2006
Posts: 111
TN Whitetail Management

This is the last time I will post on this subject, because some folks insist that their opinion means anything, when fact the LAW is just that, LAW.

I did not make up 70-4-101. Nor did I, anywhere in my post, suggest that TWRA owned anything, I cut an pasted the ownership statement from the state code of Tennessee. As much as I as a hunter would like to believe, the State has claimed "OWNERSHIP of and title to all forms of wildlife within the state, that are not lawful individual property..." That fact is irrefutable, and nothing you or any any one else says will change it. The state is not TWRA, nor is TWRA the state. The state govenment does in fact entrust the management of wild animals FOR THE PUBLIC INTEREST to TWRA, but as the LAW states, well, you can read it for yourself. That is a direct quote. Find it for yourself, it is written in TENNESSEE STATE CODE ANNOTATED TITLE 70 Chapter 4 SECTION 101. There is no arguement. It may be unpleasent, perhaps, but unargueable. I will not waste my time cutting & pasting it again.

On the issue of Whitetail Deer classification:

Taken DIRECTLY from the TENNESSEE STATE CODE ANNOTATED 70-4-403:

(2) Class II - This class includes native species, except those listed in other classes

(4) Class IV - This class includes those native species that may be possessed only by zoos and temporary exhibitors; provided, that rehabilitation facilities may possess Class IV wildlife as provided by rules established by the commission if authorized by a letter from the director of the agency:
(A) Black bear (Ursus americanus);
(B) White-tailed deer (Odocoileus virginianus);
(C) Wild turkey (Meleagris gallapavo), including the eggs of wild turkey;
(D) Hybrids of a Class IV species other than bobcat shall be Class IV; and
(E) Animals that are morphologically indistinguishable from native Class IV wildlife shall be Class IV

I will happily say that you are right about the classification of whitetail deer, I did read under Class II "Includes native species" and stopped after looking at the zoo comment in class four. That was irresponsible on my part, and I can admit a mistake.

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Joined: 10/15/2006
Posts: 127
TN Whitetail Management

BigCallin,

Thanks for admitting that you made a mistake.

I am very familiar with the law you are referring to as I was there when it was created.

How would you explain dozens of wealthy land owners holding captive hundreds of native whitetail deer in TN?

How would you explain Ron Fox, a high ranking TWRA official, testifying in court that TWRA has allowed many land owners to high fence their private property and trap hundreds of wild native whitetail deer and hold them captive? According to his testimony, this is completely legal. You don't have to take my word for it as it is a matter of public record. You can call TWRA in Nashville and speak to Ron Fox to verify this.

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Location: Montana
Joined: 03/09/2006
Posts: 111
TN Whitetail Management
Lynn wrote:
BigCallin,

Thanks for admitting that you made a mistake.

I am very familiar with the law you are referring to as I was there when it was created.

How would you explain dozens of wealthy land owners holding captive hundreds of native whitetail deer in TN?

How would you explain Ron Fox, a high ranking TWRA official, testifying in court that TWRA has allowed many land owners to high fence their private property and trap hundreds of wild native whitetail deer and hold them captive? According to his testimony, this is completely legal. You don't have to take my word for it as it is a matter of public record. You can call TWRA in Nashville and speak to Ron Fox to verify this.

I would say that it is a shame, as I read it, it should not be allowed or overlooked, no matter how much money a landowner has. I am a realist, however, and know how things really work. The reason they are probably allowed to do it is that they dont allow hunting for profit, they just are private landowners who let their friends/clients/business associates hunt, and no one else, which to my dismay is their right.. I really dont care about the word of Mr. Fox, or anybody else for that matter. People get away with crimes all the time, just need money for a crafty lawyer and a loophole, which I am sure in this case they have found. I am not argueing about wether or not it is being done, nor that I am versed at all in Tennessee Law. I found it online, and posted my opinion based on my barely educated brain's interpretation of the law.

Here is a serious question for you. If every landowner in Tennessee (or Montana, for that matter) decided that they were going to fence up their land, captivate all the deer within it, what do you suppose the outcome of that would be? I would assume that there would be a brand new interpretation of the law, quick fast and in a hurry. Would you agree, or disagree? I ask the question not because it is a valid scenario, because very few landowners can afford that type of investment in wood & wire, but just curious if you believe, as I do, that the wealthy 1% are getting away with it because of a loophole or technicality .

To close, i know that i didnt read all of the law, and dont pretend to know it. If you have the law, please post it. It would make your arguement about the legality of capturing wild animals concrete, and squlech this discussion for good. I would like to hear the reasoning behind the State allowing this to happen.

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Joined: 10/15/2006
Posts: 127
TN Whitetail Management

My personal opinion as to how this came about is that TWRA allowed one or two to do this hoping no one would know and now that it has been uncovered they have to let anyone who wants to do it.

As for the hunting of these deer held captive, what is the difference in charging for the hunt as opposed to taking your business clients there for a hunt and in return expecting to get their business. I say there is really no difference.

I feel that due to TWRA's mismanagement of the wildlife in TN, anyone should be allowed to high fence their property where they have some control on how the deer or any wildlife is managed. After all, the wildlife on private property feed on the resources of that private land and until such time as the state wildlife agencies are willing to pay for the damage done to crops on the privately own properties, landowners should have some say in how that wildlife is managed.

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Location: Summit, IL
Joined: 10/22/2006
Posts: 706
TN Whitetail Management

(4) Class IV - This class includes those native species that may be possessed only by zoos and temporary exhibitors; provided, that rehabilitation facilities may possess Class IV wildlife as provided by rules established by the commission if authorized by a letter from the director of the agency:

Am I missreading that or does it EXPLICITLY SAY " MAY BE POSSESSED BY ZOO'S AND TEMPORARY EXHIBITORS" Where does it say may be possessed by a private landowner with a High fence? They are still a CLASS 2 PERIOD....The animals listed in class 4 are allowed in ZOO's with PROPER PERMITS... Sheesh.....This is the major problem with laws today and private people...they dont read it all or seem to missinterprate simple statements for thier own benifit. Its PLAINLY stated in the law if you would care to reread it. Those doing that are not only wrong but are getting away with illegalities because they have money or friends...Such is the american way anymore and it sickens me to say that. Anyway....the Law was posted and easily readable...Your interpretation is your own as is mine. I plainly see that its illegal...If you dont then thats your problem...

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Joined: 10/15/2006
Posts: 127
TN Whitetail Management

cam69conv.

This has as been covered in court several times over the past decade and Whitetail deer are in class IV.

The problem is TWRA has been allowed to enforce the law how ever they want.

TWRA is a rouge government agency that does as it pleases and thinks that it is above the law.

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Joined: 10/15/2006
Posts: 127
TN Whitetail Management

cam69conv,

Were you able to find the law that you keep referring to which as you stated :REQUIRE annual to semiannual checkups on all FARMED animals?

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Location: Summit, IL
Joined: 10/22/2006
Posts: 706
TN Whitetail Management

Well.....As you said yourself...SHOW us where thier classification has been changed because the LAW that was posted EXPLICITLY states they are class 2 EXCEPT in Zoo classification PERIOD...Untill we can be SHOWN otherwise that is a FACT that Big was nice enough to show in writing..

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Joined: 10/15/2006
Posts: 127
TN Whitetail Management

cam69conv,

That was one of the things that was covered in court.

It was argued that a person of average intelligence could not understand which animals were in which categories. The court ruled against this argument.

Class II as stated is native wildlife EXCEPT and unless it is listed in another class. Since whitetail deer are listed in class IV that excludes them from class II.

Were you able to find the law that you keep referring to which as you stated :REQUIRE annual to semiannual checkups on all FARMED animals?

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Location: Colorado
Joined: 03/10/2002
Posts: 1787
TN Whitetail Management

First of all let me state that I know nothing about Tennessee laws as they pertain to this discussion. However in doing a google search I did find this interesting PDF document on Tennessee Animal Law.

http://www.vet.utk.edu/cait/pdf/animal_law_book04.pdf

Its quite extensive, maybe someone that really must know the details would like to peruse it. I noticed its dated 2004, could not find a more current one.

Also found this link to the TN Dept of Ag:
http://state.tn.us/agriculture/
Maybe your regs can be found there.

Lastly, in reading this thread I've yet to determine what side you are on Lynn? Is there an argument here?

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