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Location: Summit, IL
Joined: 10/22/2006
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Those Pesky, Pesky Deer Dogs
cowgal wrote:
I wasn't going to jump in the middle of this hornet's nest!! However I have very strong feelings about dogs that are allowed to run amock. First let me state that I love dogs, so don't label me a dog hater.

Dogs must to be under the owners control at all times, period. If they are not, many states do allow a property owner to take matters into their own hands. Here in Colorado if dogs are harrassing livestock, the rancher has the right to put them down - and they do. Same goes for harrassing wildlife, its not allowed and is against the law. It doesn't matter if the dog is a highly trained expensive purebred, if its running amock it will be dealt with.

The bottom line is that if a dog owner values the dog's life, then he will take good care of it and make sure its not getting into trouble. If states have laws that protect a dog over a property owner's rights, then I say those all need to changed - promptly! No dog should have more rights than a person.

Cam there is nothing unethical about protecting your own property.

Lets keep this discussion civil. Name calling and bashing is uncalled for.

Cowgal,
In address to your statement of control this was taken from the Colorado state law enforcement concerning control of huntsmans hounds

" (b) The control provisions of such resolution, as provided in subparagraph (II) of paragraph (a) of this subsection (1), shall not apply to dogs while actually working livestock, locating or retrieving wild game in season for a licensed hunter, or assisting law enforcement officers or while actually being trained for any of these pursuits."

Notice the "locating wild game in season for a licensed hunter" in there?

There is also a HUGE difference in "protecting your property" and flat out just killing a dog because he is on it. Dogs wonder sometimes and theres not much anyone can do about it. Its their nature. To ADVOCATE killing huntsmans hounds because they strayed onto your property in the heat of a chase is ludicrous and not to be tolerated. I actually find your stand on that suprising Cowgal being that you love dogs. Just because they landed on your property during a chase does NOT mean that they are amock!! Amock means that they are completely out of control and not doing what they are supposed to. If they were hitting on the cattle or sheep then I would concider that protecting my property. But LEGALLY there is NO law that allows you to simply shoot a dog because he strayed onto your property. Thats NOT in your rights to do so period. Ive SHOWN that to be the LAW and its inarguable. The only time in any state that its acceptable to down a dog is if its attacking you or your livestock period. Any other time it is to be left up to the LAW to decide what to do with the animal not you. I did not call any names. Simply stated the fact that if he does such things then he is completely unethical and a Law breaker!!! FACT. Dont like the truth then dont read it!!!

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Those Pesky, Pesky Deer Dogs

First let me clarify that I would not put a dog down as my first choice, should I come upon a stray dog. I would always first attempt to find the owner. However if it becomes a habit and the dog is worrying livestock or wildlife - yes worrying, it does not have to be harrassing or attacking, then a land owner does have the right to dispatch the dog.

Most people do not automatically kill dogs that come onto their property. But its good to know that by law I do have the right to take care of the dog if it becomes a problem. Many property owners in the southern states do not have that option and that's wrong. If people know its against the law to harm a stray dog on someone else's property, then they have little incentive to keep control of their dogs. I believe the laws need to be changed in those states, so the property owner always has the right to take care of problem dogs.

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Location: Southern Virginia
Joined: 11/02/2007
Posts: 227
Those Pesky, Pesky Deer Dogs

It's funny how forums work. People that would probably otherwise sit down and have a friendly beer together often get defensive on forums. I also know some people in dog hunt clubs that have hunting permission to hunt property on the other side of the highway(where they still or stand hunt), from where I live, where this club rarely ever lets it's dogs go, due to the size of the block, and the fact that the dogs will be lost for days. So, these guys can dog my property and others, mainly for spite(cause they know I hate it). And they get the best of both worlds. I am well versed on Virginia Law, and the fact remains that individual, private landowners do not have a cohesive, collective voice such as the dog hunt clubs. I used to coon hunt and also hunted with a club or two. I will give someone the shirt off of my back if they need it. I don't like conflict or arguments, and would like to see everyone act civil. But, I don't bother anyone, and don't want anyone to bother me. What's right is right, and what's wrong is wrong. And these "new style" dogs will go for miles until they jump, so the clubs know how to get the dogs onto your property without coming on your land, themselves.

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Location: Summit, IL
Joined: 10/22/2006
Posts: 706
Those Pesky, Pesky Deer Dogs

Most any good coon hound (again I dont own or advocate deer dogs) wont mess with your livestock at all. My hounds wont run deer because I train them hard NOT to. I catch one of my pups on a hit deer trail I zap the peewater outta him. Most all of your good coon hunters are the same as I am. Im not saying I advocate dogs always transgressing peoples property. All I am saying is that you do NOT have the right under the law to dispatch a dog that is not ENDANGERING you or your livestock. Check your laws like I did Cowgal and you will see I am spot on here. Your course of action is to call the local animal control or game warden and THEY deal with it. If its huntsmans hounds and they are legally tagged then you are actually OBLIGATED to call the owners. Frequent offenders are to be dealt with by the Game commission not YOU. Can you protect and defend your property from AGGRESSIVE animals? YES... Can you just go shooting anything on 4 legs that you dont want on your property even though its not hurting anything? NOPE. Lets put it like this, If one of my dogs strays out and ends up on unwanted property (has happened once) then I would expect that the owner would show some simple common courtesy and give me a holler and say " Hey bud I found your dog on my property and I dont allow hunting here would you please come get him" Not only would I come get him but I would be highly appreciative at the simple respect shown. It wouldnt become a habit because I wouldnt hunt my dogs to where they would get in range of said property again. There are a few buttwipes out there that dont adhere to this Im sure but dont expect we are ALL like that!!! The reason I jumped at malt was the FIRST thing he said was his little SSS crap. Most huntsmen I know are very respectful of property boundries and we know how to train our dogs to RANGE within proper hunting perameters. Again Cowgal Ill forwarn you on something, you do NOT have the right to dispatch a dog yourself unless it is ENDANGERING you or your stock. NOT just "worrying" as you stated. Check your laws and you will see that. Its not YOUR job. Thats what the state pays the control officers for if its deemed nessessary.

CVC
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Those Pesky, Pesky Deer Dogs

In Virginia, anyone can kill a dog that is chasing livestock.

I won't speak for Cowgal, but I think worrying means chasing.

Code of Virginia ß 3.1-796.116. Dogs killing, injuring or chasing livestock or poultry. It shall be the duty of any animal warden or other officer who may find a dog in the act of killing or injuring livestock or poultry to kill such dog forthwith whether such dog bears a tag or not. Any person finding a dog committing any of the depredations mentioned in this section shall have the right to kill such dog on sight as shall any owner of livestock or his agent finding a dog chasing livestock on land utilized by the livestock when the circumstances show that such chasing is harmful to the livestock. Any court shall have the power to order the animal warden or other officer to kill any dog known to be a confirmed livestock or poultry killer, and any dog killing poultry for the third time shall be considered a confirmed poultry killer. The court, through its contempt powers, may compel the owner, custodian, or harborer of the dog to produce the dog.

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Those Pesky, Pesky Deer Dogs

Here is how the statute is written in Colorado:

Dog worrying Livestock
Any dog found running, worrying, or injuring sheep, cattle or other livestock may be killed, and the owner or harborer of such dog shall be liable for all damages done by it.
(C.R.S. 35-43-126)

Worrying does not necessarily mean chasing. It means exactly what it states, the livestock is worried and nervous due to the presence of the dog. Typically though a dog will chase livestock, not just hang around.

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Location: Colorado
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Those Pesky, Pesky Deer Dogs

Now getting back to the original post by tesoronut about the problems in his area. Other than getting the laws changed, I'm not sure how you're going to solve it. I know I would be very frustrated if I owned property and had that problem. It sounds like the hunt clubs must be more powerful than the private land owners.

Keep us posted tesoronut. I do find it interesting how different areas of the country have different ideas.

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Location: Summit, IL
Joined: 10/22/2006
Posts: 706
Those Pesky, Pesky Deer Dogs

State Laws

CRS 33-6-128(5) Allowing Dog to Harass Wildlife: This carries a fine of $200.00 dollars plus a 37% surcharge and may include restitution to the State of Colorado for injury or death to wildlife. It also provides that any PEACE OFFICER may shoot a dog which chases wildlife.
CRS 35-43-126 Dog Worrying Stock: Provides that ANY person may shoot any dog which barks at, runs after, or chases livestock; and that such owner of such dog is financially liable for all damages done by it.

Note the definition of worrying ^^^^ It is NOT just bothering it or making it nervous. This is why people get into trouble. The laws are there and simply stated and defined if you just take a moment to actually READ them all the way through and not just parts and go off half cocked.

Too many good dogs have been shot by people that have no clue about good coon dogs and the cost and love that goes into training them to do something we all love. AGAIN I am not a deer runner nor will I ever be. I like to hunt my deer the huntsman way and not with a dog. But coon hunting is a whole other world and for people to get on here saying that they will just shoot your dog if it ends up on their property irritates the living hell out of me. Got one thing to say to that. Shoot my dog when it wasnt bothering you or your livestock, you best have a few more rounds chambered for me. But I SHOOT BACK!!!!

A good coon dog wont even go near your cattle or sheep unless they are out in the woods!!! Deer dogs im guessing may, I dont know. But SOME on here are lumping them all into one group when they are 2 completely differently trained animals.

As far as tesours problem goes, he has been given very good LEGAL advise on how to get this problem solved by way of catching the dogs and calling the Game Warden and Animal control. Let THEM do THEIR Jobs and if they refuse then he has every legal right to take them to court. And will most DEFINATLY win!! Shooting the dogs isnt the answer which was my concern all along.

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Those Pesky, Pesky Deer Dogs

I can interpret my state's laws just fine on my own Cam.

Now lets get back to tesoronut's original post.

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Location: Southern Virginia
Joined: 11/02/2007
Posts: 227
Those Pesky, Pesky Deer Dogs

When I had coon dogs, years ago, my dogs were very controlable, also. They wouldn't run deer. And, if they didn't strike within 10-15 minutes, they came back to the truck, and I took them somewhere else(where I had permission). Now, about "killing dogs"......Yes, I have been mad enough, at times, to do something, but never could follow through. Now, we have an inside dog that's a member of the family. IF one of these dogs comes into the yard, and even shows his teeth, or gets into the garbage, or something of that nature, I may act differently. But, as of now, I have no intentions of harming a dog. Under the right circumstances, maybe. If one of my neighbors does such, that's fine with me. But, I would like to see forum members stay cool and calm on this subject. It is a volatile subject everywhere, and that has been demonstrated here. I RESPECT EVERONE'S OPINION, BECAUSE THEY HAVE A RIGHT TO THEIR OPINION. I may not agree with everybody, but I like friendly posts.

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