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Nathan's picture
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Location: NewZealand
Joined: 05/17/2007
Posts: 44
synthetic stock question

Yes, I have one B&C stocked rifle at home but it is not one of their most recent model stocks. B7C make some nice shaped stocks, good for recoil absorption to the shooter. I have seen a few glass stocks come to pieces over the years, mainly from not enough meat in the mag well area/ compression cracks from king screw tension. I also saw pics of a McMillan, recent model, cracked in this area. I think the problem is that the stock makers are focused on light weight above all other factors- a situation brought on by market demand. In any case, I would email or phone the maker, whether B&C or McMillan and ask whether some stocks are thicker than others/ more able to cope with magnum cartridge recoil torque etc, what they recomend.

I don't even bother checking to see if a Remington will shoot without bedding or how well it shoots. I can't be bothered with the wandering zero from week to week. I get the rifle straight out of the box and hog into it. Saves a lot of time and ammo.

I am very much a fan of Remington rifles, the barrels are usually very good although some idiot of late has been garnet blasting the muzzles requiring a lot of re-crowning jobs here in New Zealand. My latest rifle is a little tactical .308 (with Hogue stock). Again, the stock was too soft and needed re-inforcing throughout. That little rifle puts all its bullets through one hole, about 9mm diameter. Pretty good for a mass produced item.

Nathan.

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Location: Nova Scotia
Joined: 08/17/2002
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synthetic stock question

The phrase "synthetic stock" is used to describe many different types of stocks from molded plastic to reinforced fiberglass/kevlar/graphite. I have a heavy HS Precision synthetic stock on my Remington 700 Sendero and it needed nothing to be extremely accurate but I also have a cheap synthetic on a sporterized lee enfield that felt like a toy and had to be bedded. Each stock is different and each application is different. The lee enfield was plenty accurate before the bedding for what it was used for, big game hunting. I just like to experiment. lol

JJD
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Location: Right Side WA state
Joined: 11/07/2008
Posts: 208
synthetic stock question

Nathan (and all who are kind enough to respond),

Like I said before, my dad was a smith and I wish I'd paid more attention.
I'll also add that a "little" knowlege can cause you a lot of grief.
Sometimes wish I were ignorant enough to be happy with mediocre accuracy.

I have a fair shop set up and will likely attempt glass bedding the Remingtom stock. Brownells accuglass has been around for years. My dad used it and he passed away at 82 yrs and pretty much quit smithing in about the the early 1980's

He glassed wood stocks, as I believe the little Remington .22 with a nylon stock was about the only synthetic stock back in his smithing days. As I remember, he would remove some wood in tight areas (relieve) to give the glass enough thickness to hold together. I ssume this is true of synthetic materials as well? Dad relieved with an exacto knife and sand paper if memory serves me right.
What works with the synthetic materials?
What areas need relieved?
How much?

I got more questions than a 6 yr old watchin an "R" rated movie. Big smile
Thanks in advance.

Nathan's picture
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Location: NewZealand
Joined: 05/17/2007
Posts: 44
synthetic stock question

Hi JJD, you need to hog out a heap of material, more than you would with wood. I use either an air powered die ginder or a dremel. My dremel is a really cheap $25 job but it has never broken down. The cheap dremel kits come with little rotary files and these are the ones to use. They need to be run at low speed as the plastic of the stock tends to melt and clog the rotary file.

Before you start, mask up the entire stock.

Regarding the front of the receiver, hog into the sides until they are under cut so that the over hang of plastic acts as a mechanical lock. Also grind little holes/divots into the sides. Grind the recoil lug area well away so the lug will have plenty of resin around it. When you are finished, the job should like like a real dogs breakfast, not nice and tidy.

You will need to bed the first inch of the barrel but if you look at this area of the stock, you will notice that it is very hollow, enough to swallow a whole acraglas kit and leave none left over for the rest of the bedding job. You will need to put in a pre fill in this area. You can use acraglas if you want but it will need a filler to bulk it out. A good filler is glass bead blasting grit. Chopped up fibre glass or graphite is good to. Personally, I have access to another brand of epxy resin which is very cheap, hard and adheres well to the Acraglas.

At the tang, remove a good deal of material, take it down quite deep and ad more divots/holes.
Once you have hogged out the stock, you need to make dams out of plastercine. Dam the front where the barrel bedding is to end, dam the front of the mag well and dam the trigger inlet.

Now it is time to look at the metal work. It is absolutely imperiative that the front, bottom and sides of the recoil lug are relieved- tape these up with masking tape. Take your time applying the tape and use a craft knife to cut and trim the tape to form a tidy fit. It pays to also put plastercine in the feed ramp area of the action and then mask across this area to block it out. Same with the trigger housing.

The Acraglas kit has all the rest of the instructions you need. Sorry for the over simplified comments but it would take hours to explain it all in detail. Its probably easier for me to answer your specific questions than go through the whole thing.

Cheers, Nathan.

JJD
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Location: Right Side WA state
Joined: 11/07/2008
Posts: 208
synthetic stock question

What is Pillar blocking?
Whats it suposed to do?
Does it do it?

Nathan's picture
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Location: NewZealand
Joined: 05/17/2007
Posts: 44
synthetic stock question

Hey JJD, seems today is pillar question day for me- talk about a day of coincidences regarding people asking about pillars. Atleast I can do a bit of cutting and pasting here to speed things up. I also wrote an article and put it on my Website, its titled the dummies guide to rifle accuracy and goes over such issues. Please have a read at:
http://www.ballisticstudies.com (in the articles section).

The most important thing you need to be aware of is that pillar bedding is not needed in plastic stocked rifles. The primary purpase of pillars is to prevent collapsing of wood fibres in wood stocks but its also good for preventing glass stocks from cracking too. A traditional problem of the wooden stock is that after a long period of time, excess gun oil can seep into the wood work and soften its structure. The tight action screws then cause the stock to collapse and split. It is very common to see wooden stocks split through the Tang between the rear action screw and the magazine well, especially on Ruger center fire rifles and Winny Featherweights. Also the Parker Hale (on the English variant, not the reworked M98 beuaty)

If you don't mind, I might as well go ahead and paste part of a correspondance I had today, helping a guy with a problem rifle (synthetic stock).

....................The synthetic stock really bothers me the most.

One hint is that the rifle shot better with a different shooter. This will be because of the difference in hand holds between you and the the other guy- whether he had a firmer or looser grip is irrelevant, the point is, he would have had a different grip which effected the harminics of the whole rig. Trust me, it wasn’t his better eye, I have used grip tension to study harmonics on poorly stocked rifles.

First let me clarify proper pillar bedding. In pillar bedding, you should not be able to see the pillars at the top- they should be covered with the bedding (resin) compound. You should only be able to see the pillars from the bottom. The ‘so called’ pillar bedding I reffered to in the NZ Guns Magazine article is when some idiot puts two pieces of tube into the rifle stock with no actual bedding at all. It should be called ‘pillar pillering’ or ‘hey some idiot just put two tubes in my gun’ Some of the real fancy smiths like to have the pillars shown at the top but that is a real dodgy game as any slight un-evenness will cause severe stress. If the ridfle shoots well after tsuch a process, it is a real credit to the particular smith.

So the first thing you need to do is establish whether your rifle is pillar bedded with resin or just has two pillars and no bedding. If it is bedded properly, it will be a mirror image of the action- even stamped letters and numbers should be seen in the resin bedding.

More than likely, your rifle is not properly bedded because of the switch barrel design. The bedding can only be a mirror image of its initial barrel. Any change of barrel will alter the fit unless the two barrels are machined to the exact same outside dimensions. Regardless, we should be able to work around this somehow with a bit of inginuety. Again, it is something I cannot fix entirely without having the rifle on my bench. My main advice, if the rifle is not bedded, is to have a good think about how to create a bedding system that will work with the switch barrel operation- before you give the rifle over to yet another guinsmith who decides to give it the ‘usual’ treatment without attention to your individual needs. You want somebody who is willing to improve the design itself, not just slap in some compound- you with me?

I am guessing that your rilfe is not properly bedded and that your stock is a major problem, I would like you to look at a couple of things, then do a couple of tests.

1. While the rifle is together, I want you to observe whether the tip of the stock is touching the barrel or whether the barrel is comptley free floated underneath.
2. Take the rifle apart. Is it bedded in Resin? If not, then you need to retain some hefty upwards pressure at the forend tip. If it is bedded, make sure the forend tip is free floated and NOT pressure point bedded.
3. Observe the underside of the action to see if the pillars have been touching the metal work. Any rub marks or metal to metal contact are a big no no. If you see any rubbing, remove the offending pillar and grind or sand it down till it is just below the surface of the stock. The purpose of the pillars is to stop stock compression- NOT for somewhere for the metal work to sit.

(JJD- This rifle, like many, came with pillars from the factory. The pillars could be removed but they are probably so thick that removing them would leaving gaping holes and a poor bedding platform later on.
4. Carry on with your sanding of the side wall along the barrel channel until it has a good 1.5mm or more gap. You need this gap, not just to prevent barrel warping during heat/contact but to stop yourself from pulling the stock into the barrel when you are shooting the rifle and have brought up tension on the forend (using the sling).
5. (I am assuming the rifle is not properly bedded for this step) This step is to save you a wasted trip to the gunsmith and will tell you whether the bedding is the culprate. Make up a rubber packer to put between the forend and barrel. If you don’t have any old rubber bike tube, use leather or something that will compress but not cause un even pressure or collapse slowly during firing. If you must use cardboard, don’t use corrugated cardboard. Apply the packer, put the barreled action in the channel and test it to see how firm it is. You need a very firm upward pressure, quite a bit of stress. Once you have the packer in place and are sure that it will stay there, take the rifle back to the range. When you shoot a group, do it slowly to minimise vertical stringing- keep that barrel cold. If the barrel is kept really cool, and the packer works, the rifle will probably shoot around a 1” group. I also do this test to check whether a barrel is warped but only after having established that the bedding is fine. You have two barrels which shoot to hell so I don’t think we need look at the barrels just yet.

Try these things first. If you find the pressure point bedding works then we need to think more about how to create a bedding platform that best suits the switch barrel design, not just a typical bedding job.

As for my comments about stock flexing in the magazine article. The twist test should be done when the barreled action is out of the stock (JJD- I pull the gun apart, hold the pistol grip in one hand and twist the forend with my other hand to check for excessive weakness). If the stock is too flexible, it does not necessarily need to be thrown away but does need to be fully reinforced down its length. The whole barrel channel should be filled with a light weight resin and re-free floated.

Cheers, Nathan.

JJD
JJD's picture
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Location: Right Side WA state
Joined: 11/07/2008
Posts: 208
synthetic stock question

Thanks Nathan,
Finally got a chance to have a look at your site.

To All;
If you are new to accuracy in hunting rifles or just need a refresher course on accuracy, Nathans article;
The Dummies Guide To Rifle Accuracy
is for certain worth your time to read. The link to his site is in his previous post above. A few things I'd forgotten.

Thanks again,
I'll keep you posted as to my progress.

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