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Location: Palisade, Colorado
Joined: 10/10/2005
Posts: 134
Stupidity of monolithic proportions

To all my new found friends here at BGH, Merry Christmas. If you don't celebrate christmas, Happy Holidays.
Big smile

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Location: Aleknagik Alaska / Ozello Keys Florida
Joined: 07/05/2004
Posts: 186
Stupidity of monolithic proportions

Bingo on the origin of the Christmas tree lishca.
The Pagans first burned a Yule Log for 12 hours to pay respect for their holiday which was later changed to the Yule tree, it was lit with candles instead of being burned like the log.
It was the Winter Solstice they celebrated which falls late in the month of December. Being the shortest day of the year the Pagans believed it to be the birth of a new sun. This all predates Christianity, from what I have read when the Christian belief was developed they simply converted the holidays meaning to one that better suited their beliefs.
It is odd why people get so upset about what others choose to call a holiday or a tree as matters go.
I guess it just gives them something to complain about.
It amazes me when I see Christan types celebrating Halloween..go figure.

Happy Holidays to all and celebrate in what ever way you wish.

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Location: AZ
Joined: 07/06/2004
Posts: 39
Stupidity of monolithic proportions

yeah when "the church" took over, they were having a hard time getting the pagans to change their ways (imagine that), so they created "new" holidays that were very similar to the pagan rituals. halloween was the druids fire festival thing, and christmas was yule, easter, ha, that's a fun one. the eggs and bunnies sybolize fetility/rebirth and pagans used to gather before sunrise and pray facing the east, to worship the sun, then they would feast. (easter sunday service anyone?)

best not to even get started on symbols.

all that said, i am a christian. i just hate being ignorant of things, which is why it both amuses me, and irritates me when i hear other christians whining about the various holidays. they throw fits about halloween because it's "the devils day" but still get worked into such a ferver over people not remembering the "true reason" for Christmas and Easter. it's "hmm, real reason huh? let me get my sacred tree and fertility symbols (respectivly) and start worshiping somehting else" and i've found it to be just short of pointless to try adn talk to other christinas about it. they act like acknowleging the history of it means you are more into worshiping the pagans gods/godesses that the one God.

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Location: Florida,USA
Joined: 08/21/2003
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Stupidity of monolithic proportions

Regardless of where and who got it all started the fact is it is Christmas that the tree is associated with and has nothing to do with "pagans" painting themselves up and dancing naked around a bunch of rocks cause it's a short day.
It is not a Lebanese Holiday, not even in Lebanon.

The Christians made it a day of giving and It was made a federal holiday by President Ulysses S. Grant in 1870? {I believe}.

While it may seem to be such a small matter on the surface, it is actually one more small thing that the "politically correct" crowd and the ACLU are forcing upon us simply because some idiot got offended because the word "Christ" is in Christmas. Those that believe that it means so little and get "irritated" by folks gettin worked up about the real name of something being changed to something it is not nor represents, are just helping that cause.

Call it what you will but in my house it is a Christmas Tree. Thumbs up
Underneath that Christmas Tree will be Christmas Presents.....not "Holiday" Presents. neener!
Merry Christmas and a Happy Holiday Season to All !!!

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Joined: 12/10/2005
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Stupidity of monolithic proportions
JTapia wrote:
Regardless of where and who got it all started the fact is it is Christmas that the tree is associated with and has nothing to do with "pagans" painting themselves up and dancing naked around a bunch of rocks cause it's a short day.
It is not a Lebanese Holiday, not even in Lebanon.

You're right. The christmas tree was invented way later, when christians cut down the living Yule Trees that Pagans worshipped and then the devious destructive christians hid them in their homes to hide their theft and destruction of other's holidays. They had no easy way to explain why they were hiding a green non-burnable tree in their homes so they invented "christmas" to explain it away. It eventually became a custom to try to destroy the Pagan's holidays (the holiday of your own ancestors), and it survives as the absurd custom of putting a tree in your home to die every Winter Solstice. This was recorded by Charlemagne, you can look it up. Haven't you ever wondered just how absurd it is to cut down a green tree and put it inside your house? Well, now you know why it was done, and still done to this day.

Quote:
The Christians made it a day of giving and It was made a federal holiday by President Ulysses S. Grant in 1870? {I believe}.

No, actually it was made a day of giving millenia before there were even christians. The concept of "giving" at this time of year was a survival ritual of tribes that lived in harsh northern climates of Asia and Europe. Native American tribes have similar customs that exist today as the well-known "Pot-latch" ceremonies. A redistribution of goods to all tribe members so that all may have a better chance at survival than just a select and greedy few. The original idea and custom of "giving" has nothing to do with christianity at this time of year.

Quote:
While it may seem to be such a small matter on the surface, it is actually one more small thing that the "politically correct" crowd and the ACLU are forcing upon us simply because some idiot got offended because the word "Christ" is in Christmas. Those that believe that it means so little and get "irritated" by folks gettin worked up about the real name of something being changed to something it is not nor represents, are just helping that cause.

Yes, I find it foolish for people to get worked up so much over the blatant lies of christians. They're so obvious and easy to disprove with facts from hundreds of cultures around the world.

Quote:
Call it what you will but in my house it is a Christmas Tree. Thumbs up
Underneath that Christmas Tree will be Christmas Presents.....not "Holiday" Presents. neener!
Merry Christmas and a Happy Holiday Season to All !!!

It's good that you call it a "christmas tree" in your house, because that's what it is. If it was outside and still alive, it would be the original Yule-Tree.You have reenacted the events that destroyed your own ancestors and cultural history. Today, for anyone of European descent to choose to be christian is just as deep of a cultural, spiritual, and ancestral hypocrisy as if a jewish person was praying "heil hitler" to a swastika. Their hypocrisy is precisely that deep. Harsh but true.

Enjoy the Yule-time of your own Pagan ancestors, now that you know the truth behind your celebrations.

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Location: Arizona
Joined: 10/26/2002
Posts: 3207
Stupidity of monolithic proportions

Such bitterness. I guess I don't understand why some people seem so determined to marginalize Christianity. They generally don't seem interested at all in critiquing any other faith on the planet or calling them hypocrites. To do so would be "insensitive" and "closed minded." But for some reason Christianity really gets under their saddle and they're awfully fired up to find something wrong with it.

I don't think anyone ever claimed that the idea of giving gifts in the winter was exclusive to Christianity. Throughout history people have given gifts on diverse occasions throughout the year. As for potlatches -- they weren't just a winter event, either.

You really lost me with the comparison between Europeans following Christ and Jews following Hitler, though. I don't recall Christ directing mass genocide across Europe. Charlemagne may have tried to spread Christianity, but I seriously doubt it was done by stealing trees and "hiding" them in the house so the pagans couldn't find them. People back then had far more important uses for their time than to steal trees and hide them in their homes out of spite. "Here -- this will fix that pagan...grab a tree and we'll hide it in the house. Oops! Here he comes! I know...we'll tell him we're doing it for religious reasons. He'll buy into that!" Rubbish.

Pagan symbology in Christian holidays happened by inclusion, not theft or eradication. Just like Easter, pagan Christian symbols became incorporated into Christian holidays as the faiths merged. Familiar pagan symbols were used to illustrate Christian principles to explain it to people being introduced to a new religion. Furthermore, such incorporation enabled pagans to embrace Christianity without feeling they had to completely abandon generations of tradition. That's not hijacking, stealing, or cultural genocide. That's inclusion. That same Christian value of inclusion led deeply-Christian men like James Madison to author the First Amendment to insure that the government didn't mandate a religion.

At this point a lot of people point to Christmas displays, songs in school, etc, and claim that it violates the First Amendment. But you have to remember it's freedom OF religion, not freedom FROM religion. The FA states Congress can't make a law to establish religion. The FA is worried about things like the Taliban enacting a law saying people who convert from Islam will be put to death, not having a religious symbol on state property. Furthermore, the FA goes on to state that Congress shall make no law prohibiting free exercise of religion. Somehow the ACLU never seems to remember that part.

Bottom line: a lot of folks are getting tired of being told we're being intolerant by expressing our views. Stating your beliefs doesn't mean you're denying someone else the right to their own. Putting up a Christmas tree doesn't mean someone can't celebrate Hannukah or Eid. Looks to me like the intolerant ones are those who can't allow Christians to express their beliefs.

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Joined: 12/10/2005
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Stupidity of monolithic proportions
expatriate wrote:
Such bitterness.

No bitterness -- just fact. I guess it's like Aesop's fable, when someone can't get what they want from someone they must believe that person must be bitter. It's such an obvious projection that usually doesn't need pointing out.

expatriate wrote:
I guess I don't understand why some people seem so determined to marginalize Christianity. They generally don't seem interested at all in critiquing any other faith on the planet or calling them hypocrites. To do so would be "insensitive" and "closed minded." But for some reason Christianity really gets under their saddle and they're awfully fired up to find something wrong with it.

I don't find anything wrong with people choosing the very belief that wiped out their own ancestors. Quite frankly it just proves what I know about most of humanity -- that they're not too bright and would rather find acceptance in joining the mindless-masses than be brave enough to stand up to them. Most would rather live a life of blissful ignorance than educate themselves to find any truth. I see people doing it daily, especially during the holidays.

I'm surprised that more hunters aren't going back to their Pagan ancestry, they'd be better hunters with more game to hunt. This is why food-stuffs were made into ornaments and put on trees to pay homage to the animals and thank them for giving of their lives so that the humans might survive. They knew the cycles of nature and the importance of conservation of nature. Look to the wisdom of your Hunter/Gatherer Pagan ancestors to find out why you can't find more decent game today. (If you can find any of their knowledge and wisdom left intact behind all the perverse twists and deceptions that christians tried to bury it all under.)

expatriate wrote:
You really lost me with the comparison between Europeans following Christ and Jews following Hitler, though. I don't recall Christ directing mass genocide across Europe.

Then I guess you aren't too aware of the 9 million women, children, healers, teachers and midwives of Europe that were put to death (made into human sacrifices by christians to appease their belief in their christian god). It's called "The Burning Times", eloquently covered in a documentary by the Film Board of Canada in a video title of the same name, "The Burning Times". Try to find a copy, it'll be your primer to what "truth" really is.

expatriate wrote:
Charlemagne may have tried to spread Christianity, but I seriously doubt it was done by stealing trees and "hiding" them in the house so the pagans couldn't find them. People back then had far more important uses for their time than to steal trees and hide them in their homes out of spite. "Here -- this will fix that pagan...grab a tree and we'll hide it in the house. Oops! Here he comes! I know...we'll tell him we're doing it for religious reasons. He'll buy into that!" Rubbish.

That only shows me that you don't know your own history very well. I just love christians that claim to follow the light and the truth and wouldn't know either if it slapped them in the face.

Let me try to put it in a way you might understand. Lets say that today, that every Pagan went around and knocked down every cross on every church and burnt it to the ground and tore the cross off of every grave across the country and hid it out of sight or destroyed it. And it would be perfectly legal and even rewarded to put you to death if you tried to replace them. To a Pagan back then, the decorated Yule Tree was a powerful and important symbol of their whole way of life and all of their beliefs. But I see you want to make a joke out of it rather than even display a glimmer of showing respect to another culture or their deeply held beliefs. I just thought, in some small way, that if there's a glimmer of intelligence and empathy in you that you might understand the comparison if made this way. I'm not surprised at your comment though, it's the typical self-centered, self-righteous, self-serving, demeaning values that all christians display. It's built into your religion to be that way. Why you choose such a vile religion that teaches you to be this way is beyond me though.

expatriate wrote:
Pagan symbology in Christian holidays happened by inclusion, not theft or eradication. Just like Easter, pagan Christian symbols became incorporated into Christian holidays as the faiths merged. Familiar pagan symbols were used to illustrate Christian principles to explain it to people being introduced to a new religion. Furthermore, such incorporation enabled pagans to embrace Christianity without feeling they had to completely abandon generations of tradition. That's not hijacking, stealing, or cultural genocide. That's inclusion. That same Christian value of inclusion led deeply-Christian men like James Madison to author the First Amendment to insure that the government didn't mandate a religion.

Again I see you don't know your own history very well. The reason that all the Pagan Deities were renamed into christian saints is so that Pagans could still celebrate and worship them without being put to death. They figured it was more "christian" to do that than just murder the rest of your Pagan ancestors outright.

Do you know what "Theft of Culture" means? Native Americans have a more eloquent name for those that do it, they call them "Culture Vultures". It's when you steal ("adopt", "incorporate") the ideas and concepts of another culture and don't understand the meaning behind it, eventually to the point where your false practices of the original rituals have watered down the original beliefs into nonsense, with no relation to the original wisdom and knowledge that the originating culture was trying to retain and convey.

Do you know what all the Pagan symbols on your "christmas tree" stand for today? Are you aware that the silvered globes on your "christmas tree" are actually powerful Pagan Magick, meant to repel and reveal deception and negative influences from all directions? Today, christians call them "witches orbs" to repel witches. When in reality they were witches' Magick to reveal the lies and deceptions of anyone, including christians. Since the original meaning remains intact through careful research today, I guess the Pagan Majick is still working. Hang another "witches' orb" to reveal your deceptions. (And this is only the tip of the iceberg of misconceptions and lies that have occurred since christians "adopted" the original Pagan meanings. Think hard now, do you know why you decorate an "EVERgreen" with food treats like gingerbread men and berries on strings? If you knew your Pagan ancestry and wisdom, then you'd know the answer.)

expatriate wrote:
Bottom line: a lot of folks are getting tired of being told we're being intolerant by expressing our views. Stating your beliefs doesn't mean you're denying someone else the right to their own. Putting up a Christmas tree doesn't mean someone can't celebrate Hannukah or Eid. Looks to me like the intolerant ones are those who can't allow Christians to express their beliefs.

Bottom line, the only reason there's a problem, and even this discussion thread, is because "christians" didn't want to be respectful of ALL cultures that celebrate the holidays, and are insisting by law, being hypocritically intolerant, that EVERYONE call it a "christmas tree", instead of a more generic and respectful Holiday Tree. When in fact it's actually a Pagan Yule-Tree if you want to be truthful and accurate about it. If Pagans were as intolerant as christians we wouldn't even allow you to have a dying Yule Tree in your home and call it a christmas tree.

You get what you sow. Blame yourself. Got a mirror? Use one of those Witches Orbs on your dying Yule-Tree, maybe you'll figure it out.

Next time I'll educate you about the true historical lack of snakes in Ireland (there never were any snakes in Ireland), why the shamrock is the symbol of the Pagan Deity "Trefuilnid Treochar", why the Irish adopted the custom of drinking on that day (to forget and deal with the loss of their heritage), and perhaps if you're lucky I'll educate you on the original meaning to "Auld Lang Syne" and why people "drink a cup of kindness yet" to the days of them.

See, the reason you don't know these things is due to Culture Vultures. Those that have adopted and incorporated (stolen) the ideas of others and turned them into nonsense today. (Are you even aware that every "christmas carol" is actually a Pagan melody that christians stole and wrote new words to them to cover up the original wisdom and knowledge they were meant to convey? It's a good thing that christians are not very creative or they could have come up with their own tunes too. It's nice they left those tunes intact to reveal their true natures.)

Why, if you knew your Pagan ancestry, you might even figure out why there's supposed to be 6 more weeks of winter after February 2nd if an animal sees its shadow. But you see, according to the christian calendar Winter ends on March 21st. So how can there be 6 MORE weeks of winter on February 2nd when winter is not even over yet? I know why. Do you? (You would if you were smart enough. But then again, your replies only reinforce what I know about the majority of humanity. Show me again, I never grow tired of displays of ignorance and stupidity.)

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Location: Missouri/Arkansas
Joined: 08/21/2003
Posts: 891
Stupidity of monolithic proportions

You know, many wars have gotten started as a result of statements like this monstrosity:

''That only shows me that you don't know your own history very well. I just love christians that claim to follow the light and the truth and wouldn't know the truth if it slapped them in the face.''

Oh yes, there's no way a Christian could understand truth, right? What exactly is the truth, anyway? I don't know. Do you know? If so, name your source, and I don't mean what it says in some book or scripture of some kind that may or not be true. Shame on You! If Jesus or God or some Pagan dude who is clearly more than human didn't say it, it doesn't count!

I'd prefer it if the truth didn't slap me in the face, that might sting.

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Location: Missouri/Arkansas
Joined: 08/21/2003
Posts: 891
Stupidity of monolithic proportions

''Next time I'll educate you about the true historical lack of snakes in Ireland (there never were any snakes in Ireland), why the shamrock is the symbol of the Pagan Deity "Trefuilnid Treochar", why the Irish adopted the custom of drinking on that day (to forget and deal with the loss of their heritage), and perhaps if you're lucky I'll educate you on the original meaning to "Auld Lang Syne" and why people "drink a cup of kindness yet" to the days of them.''

Does this also explain why there are no snakes in Scotland, or places north of that, and also places like the Yukon, or Alaska? How about northern Russia? Antarctica? I think there's maybe like one species of snake in all of England.

I've said it before and I will say it again: the Internet makes you stupid.

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Joined: 12/10/2005
Posts: 20
Stupidity of monolithic proportions
Captain_Obvious wrote:
What exactly is the truth, anyway? I don't know. Do you know?

Yes, I do know, I have a perfect definition of it, but I won't tell you. I had to work 50 years to find it. May your search not take so long.

(After this thread dies down I might post it. You won't like the answer though. Everyone I've told it to says it's the perfect answer, but they don't like it. I'm sure you'd be no different.)

BTW: My comment about the snakes was to point out the fallacy of the story of St. Patrick, not about biological ecosystems. There is a reason they invented the story about "snakes", none of it very complementary to christian values. It just reveals more christian lies, deceptions, and their total disrespect for all others.

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