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expatriate's picture
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SCARED

The government works for US, not the other way around.  We are not subjects.  We're the boss.  Personally, I find this "I don't have to answer to you peasants" attitude to be appalling.  But what's even worse in my mind is the growing proportion of the American public that's OK with being treated as subjects.  They don't demand answers.  They're OK with being lied to or disregarded.  They have They surround themselves with a bubble of denial and delusion, reassuring themselves that there's no need to worry by repeating platitudes to themselves like "As long as you're not doing anything wrong, you have nothing to fear from government reading your emails."  Or "If it saves the life of one child, it's worth restricting everyone's rights."

They have surrendered themselves completely to the collective, have abandoned independent thought, and are willing to follow the collective through Perdition's flames as long as it doesn't affect them personally.  The collective promises freedom from fear, freedom from accountability, and freedom from responsibility; in return, all it asks from an individual is his freedom of will.

They love to insulate themselves from critical thinkers by brushing them off as the "tinfoil hat" crowd or dangerous subversives.  And they're right: in a hypnotized and deluded society willing to shackle itself into slavery because someone convinced them that chains make them free, nothing is more dangerous than somebody who dares to ask, "Why are we doing this?"

Collectivism is easy, because it allows you to sit on your butt and do nothing.  If you protect yourself from the truth you don't have to make decisions, don't have to take risks, and don't have to be brave.  If anything goes wrong, it's not your fault.  Nothing is more threatening to these people than information or actual thought, because it makes life difficult for them.

Don Fischer's picture
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A government agency inside

A government agency inside the US that is not military using 24 million rounds of ammo a year? What are they shooting at? How many people do they have shooting up this stuff? If there are 5000 people in the agency actually shooting, they would have to each shoot 400 rounds a month to hit that much. If they have time to shoot 400 rounds a month, when do they work? 24 million is an awful big number.

Ca_Vermonster's picture
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Ammo

Don Fischer wrote:

A government agency inside the US that is not military using 24 million rounds of ammo a year? What are they shooting at? How many people do they have shooting up this stuff? If there are 5000 people in the agency actually shooting, they would have to each shoot 400 rounds a month to hit that much. If they have time to shoot 400 rounds a month, when do they work? 24 million is an awful big number.

C'mon guys, it's simple math. Nobody is hiding nything. Expat, did you ever think that it's not that they don't think they need to answer you, but that maybe the fact you're asking in the first place is the problem? If they took the time to "answer" to all the "peasants" as you put it, they'd need 100 people performing customer service round the clock.

Don, I will break it down again, and then I am out of this discussion to let all the conspiracy guys have their fun......

Just My agency alone, is 20,000 people.  We shoot 4 times a year.  On average, we shoot about 150 rounds plus are given a quarterly issue of 150 rounds.  So that's 300 rounds, per quarter, just for basic qualifications.  Not including any specialized training, where each agent could shoot hundreds of rounds in a day.

So, take 300 rounds, times 4.  That's 1200 rounds, per agent, per year.  Multiply that times 20,000, and you get 24,000,000 rounds of .40 cal jhp ammo.  Now, that's one year, and this contract is 5 years.  So, we will use, bare minimum, 120 million rounds in the next 5 years. 

And we are only 20,000 out of about 70,000 total armed agents in DHS.  So, you must multiply our amount by 3.5, to get the number for all of DHS.  So, 120 million, times 3.5, equals 450 MILLION rounds.  That is pretty close to the amount that they said they are ordering of .40 cal jhp ammo.  Nothing fishy, no numbers fudged, just simple math as I posted.

 

expatriate's picture
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Scared

Are you SERIOUS?  The problem is people asking a question?  As I stated earlier, government works for us...which means we have the right to ask questions, and the right to get an answer.  This is why, for example, we have the Freedom of Information Act.  And don't forget, it wasn't just a "peasant" asking the question...it was a member of Congress.  Are you suggesting that an executive agency shouldn't have to answer to Congressional inquiries?

And it's not just this issue...over six months after the attack in Benghazi, we still don't know the name of a single survivor.  Members of Congress have asked the Obama administration for names of those people, and for access to them -- and they've been denied.  This is becoming a pattern...agencies that feel they should be free to operate without being questioned.

Remember that Obama promised that his would be the most transparent administration in history...and it's refusing to answer inquiries from members of Congress.  Doesn't that concern you?

You may be OK with an imperial government that doesn't feel it should have to answer the American People, but I'm not.  I've answered congressional inquiries.  I've answered FOIA requests.  Are they a PITA?  You bet they are.  But as a federal employee it's my job to be accountable to Congress and the people I serve.  If you're a government agency that's experiencing a widening breach between you and the public, it's up to you to fix the breach -- and you don't fix it by telling the public to stop asking questions.

 

Ca_Vermonster's picture
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I am not saying that they

I am not saying that they should not be held accountable, or shouldn't provide answers.  But, I am asking, wehre does it stop?  Do they answer every single Tom Dick & Harry that thinks there is some conspiracy out there, even after the issue has been beaten to death?  Look, I just showed you, and a few others, beyond a reasonable doubt, that these ammo purchases are fully above board and legit.  It is EXACTLY what we use in my line of work.

However, you and a few others continue to complain that something's not right, and the "Government is not answering us" or is "hiding something".  After a point, it seems like people will still argue when I tell them the sky is blue and the sun is yellow, and even show them a photo to prove my point.

But I am bowing out of this discussion, because even though I have not met any of you, I still enjoy (most) of our discussions, and want to keep it civil.  Peace!

 

expatriate's picture
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Scared

Bottom line: it never stops.  Heaven help us if we ever accept the notion that government can't be asked certain questions.  Establish that precedent, and it can be widened at will.  It seems anytime someone asks a question a government entity doesn't want to answer, he's a "conspiracy theorist."  It's a classic dodge -- insult and degrade the questioner to shift attention away from the question.

And why isn't DHS being as straightforward as you are?  If it's that simple, why not just spell it out for the American People, instead of feeding the contention?

BTW, I find it interesting that DHS people are firing so much...especially given the number of military personnel who are sent into combat zones with far, far less training.  How many of those DHS people firing at that level are "front line" personnel vs fobbits in administrative/support functions?

But hey...that's me.  I had critical thinking drummed into me at an early age by a post-WWII/Vietnam generation that said one of the most important responsibilities is to stay suspect of political leaders and ask a lot of questions.  We studied "The Lottery", Maurice Ogden's "The Hangman" and the words of Martin Niemoller.  What worries me is that my kids are being taught to follow the group in all things and not to be troublemakers by experessing a dissenting opinion or asking uncomfortable questions.

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Fuel to the fire?

Here is an article I found - http://dcclothesline.com/2013/03/26/running-the-numbers-on-dhs-ammo-purchases/

The one thing it does focus on is surplus ammo inventory year over year.

Looking at the comments section "Citizen Patriot" asks some good questions that should have been a part of the analysis.

I had one person give me their reasoning for the ammo shortage - it is actually due to what we as regular gun owners are purchasing now on top of what the government is purchasing.  Those of us who only purchased a couple of boxes a year are now purchasing far greater numbers.  This does make some sense based on my purchases - I recently purchased a 350 count of 9mm (needed for practice for my and my wife's CCW) and am looking to purchase another large quantity (when I can find it).  I never purchased that quantity in the past.  I have also purchased a larger amount of rifle ammo this year - about 5X than I normally have in the past - due to prices rising and me practicing more.

So with the estimated minimum of 43 million gun owners here in the USA this could very well be good reasoning. My numbers came from - http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_many_gun_owners_are_there_in_the_United_States_of_America

But I must end this post now as it is time to leave for the local sporting goods store to buy more ammo.

WesternHunter's picture
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DHS ammo purchases

DHS has been purchasing thousands of rounds of ammo every year since they were formed.  From the numbers I've seen, it looks like they actually have bought way more in years past than they have this year.  I'm normally suspicious of stuff like this too when I hear that certain aganecies arming up.  But when you think about how the US has transformed and how law enforcement has transformed in this country since 9/11, it's not hard to understand why these agencies purchase so much ammo. 

Thinks about it.  In the years before 9/11 most officers of the law and most agents with Federal authority simply fired their duty weapons a handful of time a year at best.  Most only shot when it came time for biannual qualification.  From my experience and what I knew of most lawman pre-9/11 was that most couldn't hit the broad side of a barn at 25 yards with their duty weapon.  I had the opportunity to watch some officers qualify in years past. Also have shot at ranges with several.

After 9/11 ALL that changed.  Agents and law officers not only decided to make a better effort to shoot well, but it largley became a big part of their new training.  From what I hear now and from what I see from the few police officers I know today is that these guys shooting skills have taken main front seat priority.  And why not?  You carry a sidearm as one of your main tools of the trade, you should damn well be competent and skilled with using it. 

Right now what's causing these rolling ammo shortages across the US since mid 2008 is that everyone is scared with this new anti-gun administration.  YES we have a good reason to be. People are taking precaution and stocking up as much as they can.  I also think way more people are getting newly into shooting and gun ownership on a scale never seen before in the US.  If that doesn't say how much Americans still cherish their 2nd Amendments rights, then I don't know what does.  That's good, but the demand is just far out weighing the supply right now.  These two jokers in office are doing everything they can do to destroy our 2nd Amendment Rights.  There are a million reasons for gun owners fear right now and I can't say that any of those reasons are unfounded either.  Also keep in mind that we have been at war for 12 years now.  Companies like Olin/Winchester, ATK and it subsidiaries are two major ammo mankers who hold major DoD contracts are taxed to the limit with pumping out as much ammo as they can safely manufacture. 

To speak to Ca-Vermonster's point about his agency and the ammount of .40 S&W JHPs they use.......around town in .40 S&W I'm actually able to find way more Speer Gold Dot, Federal HydraShock, and Remington Golden Sabre jacketed hollow point ammo in all .40 bullet weights.  Even able to find .45 ACP jhp and ball often enough.  But I can't seem to find 9x19mm in anything anywhere.  Hardly any .22LR either.

expatriate's picture
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I'm convinced that the 9mm is gone because I've known a number of first-time buyers since December -- folks who never owned a gun before, but who decided they needed to buy before the government denied them the right.  Every single one of them was convinced that they needed to go out and buy a 9mm.  People who don't know anything about guns think everything's a 9mm.  It was possible to find 9mm in December and January.  But it has dried up in recent months; I'm convinced it's related to all those new 9mm owners buying ammo.

WesternHunter's picture
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9mm

Yeah well true, but a 9mm makes sense for many a first time pistol buyer as they are typically easier to shoot while still being effective as pistol calibers go.  Until recently ammo was always abundant in 9mm so a  lot of newbies base their new pistol purchases off of this idea too. Most of the petite women I've trained to shoot over the years really don't like the heavier recoiling stuff like my .45's. 

 

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