20 replies [Last post]
Offline
Moderator
Location: Florida,USA
Joined: 08/21/2003
Posts: 1566
Position on Immigration

I have purposely stayed at a distance reading this topic cause, (as evidenced by my name) I am one of the "other" people that is being referred to here. I am not an illegal immigrant though, I was born and raised in the US, however my dad was not. He came here, illegally, with my G'ma and Grampy in 1939 when he was but a year old. He joined the USAF in order to gain his citizenship and served a tour in Vietnam and a tour in Thailand in the late 60's and spent 21 years in the USAF before he retired. My Grampy gained his citizenship the old fashioned way, he applied, took English, stayed employed and out of trouble and waited the 7 years before being allowed to "take the oath".
What I am saying is that most of the Illegals are here for the same reason your forefathers came here, (which by the way, they were illegals also), to have a better life. They are just good folks trying to get by. The main problem I see is that they are unwilling to assimilate into the US population, instead they want the benefits and privileges but want to remain Mexicans and not become US citizens.
This was not an overnight thing as most have stated here. I began to notice this in the early 90's while working through out South and Southwest Georgia when all the farm hands I would see were no longer black men but instead Mexicans. A friend of mine who runs a farm that supplies his produce markets with vegetables would use "migrant farm workers" (Mexicans) to pick his crop for him as do many South and Central Florida citrus farmers do.
My point to all of this is why now are people starting to complain about this? Why didn't they complain years ago when this first started? Border security? Please, that is just a political slogan. The 911 terrorist were all here legally.
Do we need to tighten the security at our borders? Absolutely. Do we need to deport 20 million illegals? Absolutely. Either they become citizens or send them back, one at a time.
If Ann Coulter, and CVC can favor Hillery then I can favor Micheal Moore when I quote him, " Americans are the most fearful nation on the planet, we live everyday of our lives in fear of this, that or the other. and that's why we are armed". He has a point, just watch the news and you'll find all sorts of warnings about something that will do us harm. Why are we so afraid of these Mexicans?

CVC
CVC's picture
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Grand Slam Challenge Winner!
Location: Kansas
Joined: 03/04/2006
Posts: 3586
Position on Immigration

JTapia - you missed the mark on one point, but hit the nail on the head on another.

"your forefathers came here, (which by the way, they were illegals also)."

I am only second generation and my grandparents came here legally, so that statement is not true.

If you were referring to this country's forefathers, I would also argue that it is not correct as they broke no laws.

But, that point is really not important. Let's talk about the point you made about assimilation. This is the key to this issue.

A term I first heard when I was a young boy, was "wetback." It referred to Mexicans who came to this country illegally by swimming across the Rio Grande River. I realize it is a derogatory label and I don't use it to be offensive, but to illustrate that Mexicans have been coming to this country illegally for at least 5 decades.

The difference is that your grandparents and others came here for a better life and to become Americans. I suspect that your family has given as much to this country as they have gotten.

Many of the people coming here from Mexico and other central and South American countries are not coming here to be Americans. They come here to take and not to contribute.

This would not be the issue that it is today if illegal spanish speaking children were not in our schools requiring translators and special classes which cost school districts money. This would not be an issue of illegals were not using hospitals for their primary health care and thus putting a financial drain on communities.

And this would not be an issue if not for illegals marching in our streets, waving the flags of their countries and flaunting that they are illegal, demanding that we treat them as if they were entitled to be here.

I think it is like this. You have an apple tree in your backyard. The neighbor picks a couple of apples here and there. He is generally helpful and even gets your morning paper for you. You never say anything about the apples he is taking.

But one day, not only is he taking the apples, but so is his wife and their children and not only are they taking the apples, but they are lounging in your backyard and coming into your house to get drinks and use your bathroom

This is where we are today and this is why people are angry.

Your family, my family and millions of other families came to this country to be Americans It doesn't matter so much if they had papers or not - what matters is they respected this country and served it.

I do not see the respect towards our country and the willingness to serve it in the illegals who are coming here (yes, I don't see it in the citizens either, but that is another matter).

cowgal's picture
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Moderator
Location: Colorado
Joined: 03/10/2002
Posts: 1787
Position on Immigration

Jtapia, I don't fear the Mexicans, legal or illegal. Since our community has a large population of Mexicans, we have embraced the culture. Even though I don't have fear, I do worry. Worry about our social services and schools. Our hospital and schools struggle to find the funds to provide the extra services that the non-English speaking newcomers require. Here its mostly Mexicans, but other communities may have other nationalities to deal with.

I have great empathy for immigrants. I'm a first generation immigrant myself (legal) and know what it means to not speak a word of English. Our family went through the sponsor process, waited 7 years and became citizens. However back when I immigrated there were no special services for immigrants, no interpreters and you better not get sick and require free medical care. If you did, you were returned to your country of origin. Also within those 7 years before you became a citizen you had to prove yourself by working hard and paying taxes. No freebies, no handouts.

Jtapia, your father is to be commended for his service to this country. I believe he more than proved himself by serving. That was the mindset of the immigrants back then, they were eager to come to this country and serve.

CVC, good post, I agree! In particular the respect portion to this country. Though I'm an immigrant, I have never been anything but a proud American!

Offline
Location: Kingston, MI
Joined: 01/16/2007
Posts: 648
Montebello High School in California

You will not see this heart-stopping photo on the front page of the NY Times or on the lead story of the major news networks.

The protestors put up the Mexican flag over the American flag flying upside down at Montebello High School in California. I certainly hope the pictures come out so that everyone can see this attrocity. It is certainly NOT a way to assimilate into our culture.

I certainly hope this stunt will be the nail in the coffin of any guest-worker/amnesty plan on the table in Washington . The image of the American flag subsumed to another and turned upside down on American soil is already spreading on Internet forums and via e-mail.

If you choose to remain uninvolved, do not be amazed when you no longer have a nation to call your own nor anything you have worked for left since it will be redistributed to the activists while you are so peacefully staying out of the fray. History is full of nations/empires that disappeared when its citizens no longer held their core beliefs and values. One person CAN make a difference. One plus one plus one plus one plus one plus one ........ .

The battle for our secure borders and immigration laws that actually mean something hasn't even begun.

If this ticks you off as much as it does me...share it with everyone you know!

You can also find more at the link as follows:

http://www.snopes.com/photos/politics/mexicoflag.asp

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Offline
Location: Montana
Joined: 10/24/2006
Posts: 449
Position on Immigration

As i was reading this topic those pictures kept popping into my head, i had seen them before. Just about anything worth saying has been said here already. I have known a few immigrants, some here legally and some illegal and was my observation that the ones here illegal had no intention on becoming legal and ones that were legal and wanted to be a productive american did so WITHOUT being told they had to, they wanted to. There is the distinction I beleive.
People are people and in all there is good and bad. . Its not like we STOP people from becoming legal if they want bad enough so....If they got here its because they wanted to real bad, I dont see alot of the same desire to become americans all i know is we damn sure shouldnt pay them to do so!

Offline
Location: Sandhills of Nebraska
Joined: 08/03/2006
Posts: 49
Position on Immigration

We've been hammered with the propaganda that it is
the Iraq war and the war on terror that is bankrupting
us. The following 14 reasons are forwarded and should be read
over and over until they are read so many times that the reader gets
sick of reading them. The URL's for most statements are given for
verification of the following facts.

1. $11 Billion to $22 billion is spent on welfare to
Illegal aliens each year.
http:

2. $2.2 Billion dollars a year is spent on food
Assistance programs such as food stamps, WIC, and free
School lunches for illegal aliens.
http://www.cis.org/articles/2004/fiscalexec.html

3. $2.5 Billion dollars a year is spent on Medicaid
For illegal aliens.
http://www.cis.org/articles/2004/fiscalexec.html

4. $12 Billion dollars a year is spent on primary and
Secondary school education for children here illegally
And they cannot speak a word of English!
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0604/01/ldt.0.html

5. $17 Billion dollars a year is spent for education
For the American-born children of illegal aliens,
Known as anchor babies.
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0604/01/ldt.01.html

6. $3 Million Dollars a DAY is spent to incarcerate
Illegal aliens.

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0604/01/ldt.01.html

7. 30% percent of all Federal Prison inmates are
Illegal aliens.
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0604/01/ldt.01.html

8. $90 Billion Dollars a year is spent on illegal
Aliens for Welfare & social services by the American
Taxpayers.
http://premium.cnn.com/TRANSCIPTS/0610/29/ldt.01.html

9. $200 Billion Dollars a year in suppressed American
Wages are caused by the illegal aliens.

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0604/01/ldt.01.html

10. The illegal aliens in the United States have a
Crime rate that's two and a half times that of white
Non-illegal aliens. In particular, their children are
Going to make a huge additional crime problem in the
US

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0606/12/ldt.01.html

11. During the year of 2005 there were 4 to 10 MILLION
Illegal aliens that crossed our Southern Border also,
As many as 19,500 illegal aliens from Terrorist
Countries. Millions of pounds of drugs, cocaine, meth,
Heroine and marijuana, crossed into the U. S from the
Southern border. Homeland Security Report:
http://tinyurl.com/t9sht

12. The National Policy Institute "estimated that the
Total cost of mass deportation would be between $206
And $230 billion or an average cost of between $41 and
$46 billion annually over a five year period."

http://www.nationalpolicyinstitute.org/pdf/deportation.pdf

13. In 2006 illegal aliens sent home $45 BILLION in
Remittances back to their countries of origin.
http://www.rense.com/general75/niht.htm

14. "The Dark Side of Illegal Immigration: Nearly One
Million Sex Crimes Committed by Illegal Immigrants In
The United States ". http://www.drdsk.com/articleshtml

The total cost is a whopping $ 338.3 BILLION DOLLARS A
YEAR.

Are we THAT stupid???

WesternHunter's picture
Offline
Joined: 05/05/2006
Posts: 2368
Position on Immigration

Like it or not, this country and our economy has always depended to some extent on immigrant labor, legal or illegal. Always has and likely always will. Truth is that all those dollar figure and stats are not acounting for just Illegal immigrats. If those figure were correct then that would imply that the Feds know exactly where every illegal immigrant is, because they would know exactly where the money is going, Right?? If they are correct then I wouldn't be too concerened as that just means that you have a better change of getting a job with the boarder patrol or customs and immigration departments. I guess all those illegals are providing government jobs for us after all eh? Then again I also don't see any middle class Americans in too much of a hurry to give up their white-collar jobs to go work jobs that only immigrants are hired to do. Reminds me of that part in the movie The Kingdom where the FBI is interviewing witnesses to a bombing. One witness recognized seeing a Saudi suspect in the area because he was doing manual labor. When asked how she remembers seeing him she said it was odd to her because "Saudis are like Americans, they don't do manual labor, it's benieth them".

I really think it's more that those dollar figure include the many million of lower class Americans. Yes the low life scum and bottom end of american society that we often don't like to admit exists. It's often hard to remember that we have that problem here too with our own. Too many Americans fail to see that not every American is honest and hard working. All the meth labs that get busted seem to be runned by white-trash americans from my observation, not to mension the other crimes we have as a society. I think it's way too convenient to blame all the problems on Illegal immigration. Numbers, stats, and dollar figures like those do nothing but enstew passion and hatred artificially. Not defending the Illegals, just stating a fact that we often seem to forget, or just simply don't want to admit. Hey it really bothers me to see immigrants waving and raising foreign flags on our soil, but then again my house is only one of two houses in my neighborhood who displays the American flag flown proudly from above my front pourch, and I live in what most would consider an almost all white upper middle class neighborhood. How many other Americans still fly their American flags anymore?

I've been asked by co-workers on different occasions why it's only minorites and illegals who end up commiting heanus crimes? Kind of reminds me of the book How to Kill a Mocking Bird. If a black man (or any minority or non-white immigrant) is accused of a crime or even suggested that he commited the crime, then he MUST be guilty right?? Even if he is innocent. My response to the question was that it's not. It's just that most Americans seem to just be much more angered and enraged when a minority or and Illegal allien commits a crime. That way of thinking still doesn't lay too far under the surface, even today, does it? That has just been my observation anyway.

Now with that said I think any immigrant wanting to come here should come here legally to embrase America. Become a productive member of our society. Learn to speak our language, pay taxes, and obey our laws. If they did that then they just might put some Americans to shame. Because one of the major problems with us Americans today is that we think that we are much better than we really are, and that will lead to our downfall, complacency. Trust me, our society today has no where near the high standards that were common with the generations before us. I guess you've all probably figure out by now that I don't have too favorable of an opinion on todays modern American society. Though I'm still proud to be an American!

Don't be too hard on immigrants. Your children or grandchildren may be one someday. Just remember that if corporate america keeps up the same trend they are setting now of outsourcing all our jobs, your children and grandchildren will be forced to become expatriates and immigrate to other countries just to have a good paying job. Because it's not only manufacturing type jobs that are being outsourced anymore, it's also happening to both technical, engineering, and service type jobs now. Who would have thought, educated and highly skilled Americans having to leave America to survive? I sincerely hope I'm wrong, but I can see that happening very widespread in the next 50 to 100 years. Maybe even sooner.

SoCoKHntr's picture
Offline
Location: Pueblo Colorado
Joined: 12/18/2006
Posts: 1789
Position on Immigration
WesternHunter wrote:
Like it or not, this country and our economy has always depended to some extent on immigrant labor, legal or illegal. Always has and likely always will. Truth is that all those dollar figure and stats are not acounting for just Illegal immigrats. If those figure were correct then that would imply that the Feds know exactly where every illegal immigrant is, because they would know exactly where the money is going, Right?? If they are correct then I wouldn't be too concerened as that just means that you have a better change of getting a job with the boarder patrol or customs and immigration departments. I guess all those illegals are providing government jobs for us after all eh? Then again I also don't see any middle class Americans in too much of a hurry to give up their white-collar jobs to go work jobs that only immigrants are hired to do. Reminds me of that part in the movie The Kingdom where the FBI is interviewing witnesses to a bombing. One witness recognized seeing a Saudi suspect in the area because he was doing manual labor. When asked how she remembers seeing him she said it was odd to her because "Saudis are like Americans, they don't do manual labor, it's benieth them".

I really think it's more that those dollar figure include the many million of lower class Americans. Yes the low life scum and bottom end of american society that we often don't like to admit exists. It's often hard to remember that we have that problem here too with our own. Too many Americans fail to see that not every American is honest and hard working. All the meth labs that get busted seem to be runned by white-trash americans from my observation, not to mension the other crimes we have as a society. I think it's way too convenient to blame all the problems on Illegal immigration. Numbers, stats, and dollar figures like those do nothing but enstew passion and hatred artificially. Not defending the Illegals, just stating a fact that we often seem to forget, or just simply don't want to admit. Hey it really bothers me to see immigrants waving and raising foreign flags on our soil, but then again my house is only one of two houses in my neighborhood who displays the American flag flown proudly from above my front pourch, and I live in what most would consider an almost all white upper middle class neighborhood. How many other Americans still fly their American flags anymore?

I've been asked by co-workers on different occasions why it's only minorites and illegals who end up commiting heanus crimes? Kind of reminds me of the book How to Kill a Mocking Bird. If a black man (or any minority or non-white immigrant) is accused of a crime or even suggested that he commited the crime, then he MUST be guilty right?? Even if he is innocent. My response to the question was that it's not. It's just that most Americans seem to just be much more angered and enraged when a minority or and Illegal allien commits a crime. That way of thinking still doesn't lay too far under the surface, even today, does it? That has just been my observation anyway.

Now with that said I think any immigrant wanting to come here should come here legally to embrase America. Become a productive member of our society. Learn to speak our language, pay taxes, and obey our laws. If they did that then they just might put some Americans to shame. Because one of the major problems with us Americans today is that we think that we are much better than we really are, and that will lead to our downfall, complacency. Trust me, our society today has no where near the high standards that were common with the generations before us. I guess you've all probably figure out by now that I don't have too favorable of an opinion on todays modern American society. Though I'm still proud to be an American!

Don't be too hard on immigrants. Your children or grandchildren may be one someday. Just remember that if corporate america keeps up the same trend they are setting now of outsourcing all our jobs, your children and grandchildren will be forced to become expatriates and immigrate to other countries just to have a good paying job. Because it's not only manufacturing type jobs that are being outsourced anymore, it's also happening to both technical, engineering, and service type jobs now. Who would have thought, educated and highly skilled Americans having to leave America to survive? I sincerely hope I'm wrong, but I can see that happening very widespread in the next 50 to 100 years. Maybe even sooner.

Awesome post! I am an American of Spanish and Mexican heritage. My Paternal grandparents were Spanish settlers here long before it was a question of legality. My maternal grandparents came from Mexico in the thirties legally. I agree it's a problem and serious steps need to be taken, but don't let the ugly head of racism (dark crimes of immigrants) infect your thinking. Most immigrant crime just like poverty based crime is committed against their own.

Cowgal, you have also made some great points.

WesternHunter's picture
Offline
Joined: 05/05/2006
Posts: 2368
Position on Immigration

Thanks. I'm sure a lot of other people will disagree with me and that's fine too. I'm just speaking about my observations.

Another sad thing that I often see happening is the complete misuse of the word Mexican. Often refering to every hispanic as a Mexican. Of course there's nothing wrong with being Mexican. I find it funny when people think that every dark skinned person is a foreigner. In places like Colorado, New Mexico, Arizona, Oklahoma, and much of the southwestern states and even the deep southern US is there are many Americans of Spanish (real european spanish), French, and Native Americian mixed blood. These people's ansestors have been in this country for 200+ years. Yet because of their appearance or last name, they are often, through plain ignornace, considered by other Americans to be Mexicans. Some of these people even mistakenly refere to themselves as Mexicans when in fact there is no Mexican lineage.

I've witnesses some people tell them to go back to where they came from. But, they are from here, they are Americans!!! Often other Americans ask them about their culture. What culture?? They are Americans for several generations. They have the same culture as you and me. They speak English and grew up eating a vast variety of foods we have here in the States, listening to similar music, going to the same type schools. They are American in every sense of the word. I just don't understand why many Americans just don't get that!!!! They actualy believe these Hispanic people are foreigners Brick Wall,) I don't understand how so-called educated Americans can be so ignorant.

SoCoKHntr's picture
Offline
Location: Pueblo Colorado
Joined: 12/18/2006
Posts: 1789
Position on Immigration
WesternHunter wrote:
Thanks. I'm sure a lot of other people will disagree with me and that's fine too. I'm just speaking about my observations.

Another sad thing that I often see happening is the complete misuse of the word Mexican. Often refering to every hispanic as a Mexican. Of course there's nothing wrong with being Mexican. I find it funny when people think that every dark skinned person is a foreigner. In places like Colorado, New Mexico, Arizona, Oklahoma, and much of the southwestern states and even the deep southern US is there are many Americans of Spanish (real european spanish), French, and Native Americian mixed blood. These people's ansestors have been in this country for 200+ years. Yet because of their appearance or last name, they are often, through plain ignornace, considered by other Americans to be Mexicans. Some of these people even mistakenly refere to themselves as Mexicans when in fact there is no Mexican lineage.

I've witnesses some people tell them to go back to where they came from. But, they are from here, they are Americans!!! Often other Americans ask them about their culture. What culture?? They are Americans for several generations. They have the same culture as you and me. They speak English and grew up eating a vast variety of foods we have here in the States, listening to similar music, going to the same type schools. They are American in every sense of the word. I just don't understand why many Americans just don't get that!!!! They actualy believe these Hispanic people are foreigners Brick Wall,) I don't understand how so-called educated Americans can be so ignorant.

Yeah, I forgot to mention my paternal great grandfather was a full blooded German. All settlers and ranchers who came here years ago.

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