He's changing alright Expat. Every time he speaks on every issue. It's like watching a tennis match too close to the TV.

It's hard to know where to start Expatriate, maybe the beginning, please stop making things up, would be a good place. Your link says nothing about more debt than in 8 years of Bush Co.

I should remind you that 8 years ago there was a surplus following 8 years of fiscal responsiblity. Also that historicaly debt isn't so large as a percent of GDP. During a huge recession such as was inherited from the irresponsible fiscal policies of the Bush Cheney cabal you have defecit spending, get over it. At least now things like the wars are being added up on the scorecard instead of hidden, as if that debt never existed. Also some of the huge debt incurred this year was appropriated last year, (700 billion of Tarp for instance) also two wars. We can't just pull out of two wars. Medicare part D the largest social program begun since Medicare/Medicade, we can't just end it you know, even if a lions share is gong to Pharma and the Insurance industry. And of course there are the irresponsible tax breaks. Since when do you borrow to give rich people a tax break?

That's just your first point. I've already dealt with the CO2 lie, if you knowingly repeat a lie what does that make you? Can't you make an honest arguement? Why resort to saying things that aren't true? Of course this post will get deleated anyway, "conservatives" can't stand it when someone doesn't see things their way.

That's it?

That's all you've got? Accusing me of making stuff up, lying, and the usual Bush/Cheney boogeyman, war and rich people tripe? You forgot to throw Fox news in there, too.

You are pathetic.

Bush presided over a $2.5 trillion increase in public debt through 2008. Bush and Obama share responsibility for another $2.6 trillion in FY09. Obama's budget will increase public debt another $4.9 trillion from 2010 through 2016. Where I come from, 4.9 is more than 2.5. But then, I'm a product of public schools so I may be wrong.

I didn't claim the link compared Obama spending to Bush spending. But then, my mind is capable of considering more than just whatever is in front of my nose at the moment. That's why I notice contradictions and position reversals and you just take 'em in hook, line and sinker like they never happened.

I mean seriously, that's all you can come back with -- a general accusation of lying? Is that the only thing liberals like you and Nancy Pelosi can do when caught being stupid -- claim that you were lied to?

The entire public record is a lie? And you haven't "dealt" with the CO2 issue -- like this one, you just declared it a lie and said you won the argument, Mr. Potato head.

The issue here is Obama jacking up the federal debt trillions of dollars in three months, and then lecturing to us about how bad it is to jack up federal debt. So now you're in a robot's paradox: "He's a genius because he borrows his way to prosperity...he's a genius because he advocates debt reduction...but he's a genius because he says we need to go into debt...yet he's a genius because borrowing is bad...error! Error!"

"Doublethink means the power of holding two contradictory beliefs in one's mind simultaneously, and accepting both of them." -- George Orwell

Even worse, the last few days I've seen news clips of Obama chastising the American public for not living within their means and running up their own personal debt. Hello???? Did his teleprompter screw up?

I guess he's one of those "do as I say" not "do as I do" types of people.

We've haven't even begun to see the fallout from Obama's HUGE spending spree. Years from now, we'll be scratching our heads wondering how we got into such a mess. Bush's spending won't even be a drop in the bucket compared to the deficit Obama is creating. Obama will try to raise revenue by taxing areas that have never been taxed before. In the end, our country will suffer for the mess he's created.

Didn't accuse you of lying Expatriate, just making things up. You say Obama has run up a bigger deficit than Bush, I say great, show me the numbers.

I read a 1700 billion deficit for 09, Bush's last budget year

and 1100 billion deficit for 2010 Obama's first budget year.

http://www.gpoaccess.gov/usbudget/fy10/pdf/budget/summary.pdf

A lot of the disparity is due to the 700 billion Bush appropriated for TARP and I didn't like TARP but I trusted everyone that it was needed. Without TARP deficits would have been about the same for both.

You say 4.9 is bigger than 2.5, it's also bigger than 1.7 but that 1.7 is for one year, 4.9 is for four years including dragging the economy out of the worst recession in 70 years. Apples and Oranges, AIP and the Unconstitution Party.

Righties should be the last folks to give lectures about fiscal responsiblity. There's a long and tortured (oops) history of Republican irresponsiblity. Now if you want to talk about how to kill a bunch of inocent civilians I'd look up the GOP in a heart beat. Telling other rpeople how to live their lives? You got me there.

Now I know you all are suprised to hear Obama preaching fiscal restraint but he's been doing this ever since 04 that I've heard of. I'd suggest getting a better source for news if this is news to you. Obama goes on to say that the single largest thing we can do to rein in the big spending is to reform health care. Now I know a lot of you are thinking the thing to do is to give a big ol tax cut to rich folks. But that just aint how things work.

I'd remind all of you borrowers out there that the last Dem left a surplus, it's going to take a while to fix things but we'll get er done. The answer to everything isn't to give rich folks a big old welfare handout. (and that's what a cut in capital gains is)

And this is one issue, which part of cap and trade don't you understand yet?

We're not talking about Clinton. We're talking about Obama. Clinton knew better.

Bush increased the federal deficit $2.5 trillion between 2001 and 2008. Obama increased it $4.9 trillion between January and April. And by the way, the economy hasn't recovered yet.

At the rate he's spending, we'll be wiping our butts with twenties in a couple years 'cause it'll be cheaper than toilet paper.

To a certain extent, I think Obama still behaves like a candidate for election rather than an elected official. To one crowd he will lament the increasing deficit to another crowd he'll preach the virtues of government spending and lending. Great on the campaign trail, terrible in a president.

I don't know about Obama being such a horrid president, we're not yet at month number 4 with another 92 to go, but again judging by history since 1980 I feel a lot better about the debt today than I did 5 months ago. Not counting two wars as part of a budget is a little bid disingenuous.

Still waiting for a source of your numbers Expatriate, this is three times now I'm asking you, are you just making them up?

Take a look at the chart. The separation between W Bush and Obama is made with a horizontal line, over it the amount Obama has added to the debt. Below it is Bush's contribution. If Obama follows the trend for Democratic administrations since 1945 I'd say the debt will go down, and wages will go up, health care and ending a couple of wars should also get thrown in the mix.

I'd say the borrow and tax give away crew have had their chance.

Many who claim not to, know that in a severe recesion you need to spend a tremendous amount of money to keep the economy from going off a cliff, All of the Republican Governors have so far decided to opt for a political future and taken the stimulus except that fellow from South Carolina, and his legislature is going to save him.

It's like the teenagers have had a huge drunken bash while the folks are out of town, now the parents have returned and started to cleam up and the kids are complaining because they are made to pick up a broom and help.

Preview	Attachment	Size
	National-Debt-GDP.gif	15.43 KB

If I thought you were actually engaged in intellectual debate, I'd discuss sources, Civet. But you've proven again and again that you're not interested in debate -- when presented with facts, you spend your efforts discrediting the source. Doesn't matter what source it comes from -- if it contradicts you, you think it's "lying."

Besides, you said I'm not allowed to come up with my own facts, didn't you? Perhaps you should tell me what my source is?

But at any rate, I'll humor you. The numbers are a matter of public record, and here's a link that references them:

http://blog.heritage.org/2009/03/24/bush-deficit-vs-obama-deficit-in-pic...

Now as far as that ridiculous post of yours, that was the most ludicrous attempt at spin I think I've ever seen. We climbed out of the depression in spite of Roosevelt, not because of him, and there's evidence to suggest that he dragged it out longer than it might've been. Besides, things were getting worse again until WWII kicked in.

We need to reengage on this topic again in a couple years when we're in the midst of double-digit inflation.

And what you're saying contradicts your Dear Leader. He says we shouldn't be carrying so much debt.

Expatriate it's impossible to have an intelectual debate with you even assuming I would want to. You are too old already to learn intelectual honesty.

Look at your link then think about it and come back.

Your link doesn't reference the public record as you claim. It references another article in the Washington Post. And when we do get to the original in the washington post we find out those horrible deficits you are crowing about are Bush, not Obama. Fiscal year 09 began last October. Good Grief.

So your charts show the worst deficit was Bush's, and projected deficits are to go down. Ok he was a little irresponsible. If I had to list the worst thing Bush did it wouldn't be the 09 budget, crashing the economy and a couple of wars would vie for the top spot along with 9/11 and Katrina, there are probably more, war crimes certainly rate, but the 09 budget not really, by then he was just trying to keep the whole thing from crashing down on his head. Never seen a happier guy to leave the white house.

You realy realy ought to do some reading, no, I take that back, stick to just bloviating about politics. Obama's socializing and stuff. What about that socializing anyway? Was that this thread? You ever learn what socializing means?

The budget bill was hammered out between Bush and congress, and laden with pork for Republicans but still they had to pass stopgap spending bills until Obama came and said just pass the thing. Remember everyone cried about all the pork they were forced to take? It was in January three months into the fiscal year.

The budget passed more recently was Obama's, it's for 2010 and beyond, it's called a budget request, sets the stage for how the actual budget is passed.

Don't understand what you are trying to say about Roosvelt. The guy who dragged us out of the depression and gave us 50 years of Dem rule, made things worse? Good thing no one told the Americans that voted Dem for the next 50 years. Guess we should have stuck with Hoover huh?

I did notice that the Republicans got with the program but quick in 1934, Landon was already calling for joining Social Security for all the good it did him with his 8 electoral votes. No signs of smartening up yet. Every time I hear someone say G W was too liberal it brings a grin ear to ear.

One last thing about your link, "privatization, deregulation, cuts in social spending, and pre-emptive military strikes" Sounds like the last 8 years, run the economy into the ground and start a couple of wars. See you in 2070.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heritage_Foundation