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Location: Missouri
Joined: 02/14/2004
Posts: 62
non-residents no more?

Ok, JLM
Dealing with Whitetails. Well,,,,if it isn't how they're managed,,,why is it there were near no deer in most states back 50 years ago? Why is it as soon as people started "managing" the population came back? Management don't just mean feed stations. It's habitat improvement of all sorts and angles. Private and public lands together.
As fars as your points on weather and predators. That arguement don't hold much water. There are conditions that effect wildlife in many ways. They may not be exactly the same but they effect populations the same. Examples, dogs, Floods, snows and desease etc. StillHunter hit this point pretty good.
Oh,,,by the way,,,not everybody has to have a food plot to hunt over east of you Wink
It's not always like what you see on TV,,,,Just like in the west.

Captchee,
That's a pretty good reply. I agree with some of what you say. Actually most of it. Muleys are different I agree. That is why there are different ways of management. If the Wildlife agency in your state manages them the same as Whitetails then they need run off. I'm not going to set here and try to tell someone how to manage their own wildlife,,,,,, but,,,,,it needs to be managed. Now for the record, I don't go west hunting because I can't hunt in my own state. I go for a vacation. Just like thousands fo people do when they go to Yellowstone or Disney World. There is no difference in my opinion. Yes I would take a trophy if I had the chance,,,but,,,I have turned down chances of "just killing something" I don't have to come back with anything to have had a great trip. I don't take coolers of beer or ATV's. I have stated all this earlier in this post so I will leave it at that.

StillHunter, You said a mouth full when you hit on the point of Drought and winter range! Wink Think about that a little and imagine what a influx of money to those areas of management could do?
I'll study on that a little and maybe get back with you but,,,,I'm not in the business of telling others how to take care of their problems.

I'm just trying to make a point about the future of our sport. There's nothing more that the bunny huggers love to see than for all of us to fight amongst each other. Selfishness and greed will be the down fall of hunting. Not drought or harsh temps.

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Location: Missouri
Joined: 02/14/2004
Posts: 62
non-residents no more?

JLM
I'm not a member and haven't ever hunted Muleys. I hope to someday. "If I'm welcome?"

As fars as what you say about the non native plants,,,,,,You have a good point and are on track about management practices. One thing to think about? If you had money to provide incentives for landowners and moeny for government agencies to work on the problem,,,,,,they could put more emphasis on vegitation management and eradication/reintroduction of grasses or whatever needed. That is an expensive task. Lets put a little math to it here. If there were say,,,,,300 extra NR permits sold? They would have a 10% success rate? This is all a guess. I'm not up on the numbers in CO. That means they would take 30 deer out of the herd. If that money was earmarked for forage management of Mule deer, it would be around $90,000 Now, with that amount of money for forage management,,,,how much incentive could you give to people to help manage something "vegetation" that will in turn help their own interests. 300 extra hunters scattered across the state isn't that many. Maybe in a county it would be a high number but across the state it would be hardly noticed.

This is just a thought. There are lots of different ways to solve a problem but,,,,,they all take money.

Now, I know you can shoot holes in what I just said but,,,,,you can't deny that nonresident money is needed to manage what you have. Doing away with this income will be disatrous to your wildlife.

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Location: Idaho
Joined: 09/20/2003
Posts: 138
non-residents no more?

Its not the NR monies are not needed, of that I believe that there is little doubt.
The problem lies in the management and the allocations of monies.
Lest put your vegetation rehab to work here for a sec.” of which I agree with 100 %.
Ok the cheat grass is state wide not just in areas put it has become the dominate grass and would take huge amounts of monies to get rid of and even then probably not solve the problem.
Then we have laws against baiting for game such as deer and elk that must be worked around.
Then the next problem would be open grassing of cattle which destroy the creek bottoms.

The real problem is not the NR it’s the amount of hunting during a season. If we us the MOD’s post for here in Idaho it show near 20 thousand folks took dear in the general hunt so you can bet that means near 75 to 80 thousand total hunting in a 1 to 2 week period, now if we break that do to number of hunters per unit you should be able to get my drift.

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Location: Missouri
Joined: 02/14/2004
Posts: 62
non-residents no more?
Quote:
Its not the NR monies are not needed, of that I believe that there is little doubt.
The problem lies in the management and the allocations of monies.

My Point Exactly!
It is management. It isn't the NR Hunters.

Everybody wants to blame NR's for coming and crowding the local hunters out. Folks that just isn't the case. The local people want to blame the NR's on low deer populations and that's not the case either.

I agree with you on the cost of vegitation management. It would be a big problem to tackle but,,,,,,you have to start somewhere and not just blame the NR hunters.

Grazing,,,you brought that up. I raise cattle and have rented pasture when I wanted to run more cattle. I side with the farmer/rancher as far as their needs. Now,,,,,is it the winter grazing that is detrimental to the deer and elk herds? Do they take the range proceeds and feed it back to the deer at feed stations? If so is this a good thing? There are lots of questions that could be ask about this program. I know here in MO,,,,they have state lands that a person can get crop permits for. In these permits it regulates timing and area along with amounts left for wildlife. You can not cut hay in fields until the turkey and quail have nested and raised their broods. This is just one example of this.

It is management the hurts or helps wildlife. This is a human factor. Nature has a course that it follows and now there is the human factor that needs to be figured in. This is what management is. Killing deer is only a small part of managment. It's the whole picture. Water, feed, forage, weather, roads, agriculture, desease, predators and PEOPLE It all has to be figured in.

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Location: Missouri
Joined: 02/14/2004
Posts: 62
non-residents no more?

Management and types of management should be another post. This is about turning Non Resident hunters away from Colorado or I guess any western state that has big game hunting except whitetail deer. I see the arguements and remarks about NR's have slacked off.
I am leaving for Montana in the morning around 8:00 am. I will be there through the 15th of May so you all won't have any replys from me to your posts on NR's untill I get back.
I really enjoy this and don't want you all to think you beat me down. I am go'in to be a NonResident hunter for a couple weeks.
I figure this year there will be a couple western states get some of this eastern money. The people of Montana will get around $2,000 of my eastern money. The local people of Lincoln County will get the majority of that. I will enjoy myself, the locals will earn a little money and I may take a bear out of their population so they won't get as many complaints around their houses and the Taxidermist may even make $700 or $800 from me. I will get more memories and see lots of wildlife that isn't here in Missouri.

You know what???????

Everybody will benefit from this NonResident
Wink

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Location: Idaho
Joined: 09/20/2003
Posts: 138
non-residents no more?

Ok well here is my grip on NR
Of which I am not against.

1) If the state dictates that only 50 NR tags are given for a particular unit then I expect to only see 50 out of state license plates while hunting that Unit not 100.

2) I don’t like seeing the F&G saying in articles that the state of Idaho is ranked at a given number for NR hunters and that the number of trophy animals is seen as the problem of the poor ranking. Then when the next regulations are posted you see a spike only hunt on the grounds of improving the 6-point or better %.

3) I don’t like it when just before day brake 3 truck loads pull up to my camp while I am having a cup coffee and proceeds to walk right by me because they want to hunt behind my camp. The same can be said for resident hunters but I have yet to have any do that, "Yet ,knock on wood"

4) I don’t believe that out of state companies should be able to by large track of land, close them off and use them as there own private hunting reserves while all those living around those places pay for the winter crop damage.

5) I also disagree with grazing on public land at the current cost. We don’t graze our herd on public land . We all as resident ranchers know and see the damage done to the stream banks and bottoms, you cant help but see it and when taking a closer look the tail is told .
IMO those of us who disagree do so only to fight the cost of doing business, it shameful and should not be aloud

Basically and I will say it again I do not believe that ANY state should manage ANY section of their state based on trying to draw NR hunters.
Now we can say that trophy animals are for the residents as well but I disagree, as I will bet any Resident who wants to work for that trophy can find one.
But ha why not just ranch raise trophy animals and then a week before opening day run them up in the mountains so we don’t rally have to hunt for long they would be right along the roads where most seem to hunt now days. That way the number of days for a 6 point buck” 12 for you eastern guys” would be short , the books would look good , it make about as much sence..

The way I see it is nation wide it’s a race, a race for NR monies and those states that can improve their NR take % are the ones who are in the lead. They are also the ones who IMO are managing for the NR hunter and not for better herd genetics or for the animals themselves or their habitats
I would never breed one of my heifers to a 1 or 2-year-old bull, yet that’s what we are doing here in Idaho with the present bucks only, 3 point or better or bulls only.
Its poor management plain and simple.

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Moderator
Location: Wa.
Joined: 03/31/2004
Posts: 1300
non-residents no more?

I going to be headed over to Colorado in the next couple of years. While I'm there I thought I might get in some hunting. Are they going to be making it difficult or impossible to get NR tags? Are there any special steps that must be taken for license and tags? I'll wait to see how the costs go before I make application. If the state is reasonable it would probably be on. I don't think I'll be chasing any of the elk. I think I'll stick with the mulies and pronghorn. That could change. It depends on what the state wants.

Thanks

I spoke with my nephew. His interest is, to chase after the prairie goats. I'll be staying down in the Castle Rock area.
It'll be his first hunt. So I'll be looking for an area with good opportunity.
Him being a resident and myself NR. What are the chances for tags? I've never applied in Co.
I've explained the requirements as far as hunter safety, etc.
He's looking forward to getting out. It probably won't happen until the 2006 season, but it doesn't hurt to get a head start. I don't know what obstacle we're going to run into.

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