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Location: Missouri
Joined: 02/14/2004
Posts: 62
non-residents no more?

Just so you all realize something.
Colorado DOW had an annual income in 2003 of $86,978,681. Of that money Permit sales consisted of $60,654,392
Now, in Montana 75% of permit sales is NonResident permit sales. Colorado didn't disclose how much of their permit sales is NonResident.

So,,,,,,All you people out there wanting to send the NonResidents packing????????????

Management of the resources "by DOW" depends on NonResidents!

I guess if you all want other income based funding then go ahead and do away with NR. Then you can have more special interest groups involved.
If DOW is not funded from permit sales "which come from hunters" where are the priorities of management going to be?

If you all care about the future of your sport,,,,,,,,,,,,,YOU better be careful of what you ask for,,,,,,,you just might get it!

JLM
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Location: Colorado
Joined: 04/24/2004
Posts: 14
non-residents no more?

I know I'm coming in on this a little late, but I thought I would defend my home a little Wink

What a lot of Nonresidents fail to realize is that the hunting is not the same in Colorado as it is in eastern State's. We dont have long seasons with high bag limits like most other states where people complain are from. For the most part our big game hunting is limited to one week with a bag limit of one male animal. Yes the D.O.W. did decide to let us hunt deer and elk in seperate seasons last year so know we have two weeks if we like, but that is still very short compared to what most other states have. And then when you try to jam every Tom, Dick and Harry into 2nd & 3rd season, space and animals become tight.

Second, we don't have the game numbers like other states. If you add up all the deer, elk, antelope, moose, bighorn sheep, mtn goat and bear, we still have less animals than alot of states whitetail deer population.

Look at our bull elk, you would think that we would be a top B&C state with the population we have, but our bulls are hammered into the ground with OTC tags and now with the latest 5 yr BGSS the D.O.W. has proposed an ever lower bull/cow ratio for the statewide average. 15-20/100 instead of 20-30/100.

You will never find a Gov't agency say that it has enough money, they will always want more for whatever reason. But the fact is other states get by with less money and have higher quality hunting. Many people working for the D.O.W. will tell you that the agency has gotten to be a huge lumbering bueracracy that can't adapt to change , maybe if they were forced to become smaller they would also become more agile and effcient.

Lastly, and my personal favorite from Nonresident hunters is they state that they too own USFS and BLM land and therefore should be intitled to equal hunting on it as the Colorado resident. So I tell them that its true they own the land just as much as I do, and that nobody will stop them from accessing "their" public lands, but the Game animals belong to the state and its up to the state to issue the tags.

As for liberal bunny huggers, isn't Dick Gephardt from Missouri ? didn't you guys vote in a "dead" Democrat senator by the name of Mel Carnahan?<-----spelling. That Right !!! Evil!

Offline
Location: Missouri
Joined: 02/14/2004
Posts: 62
non-residents no more?

Well first off, for the record, Yes MO did vote in a dead democrat. That I guess they figured was better than the live Republican that was running. He was "anti" and "Pro" on alot of stuff the public didn't need. That kinda speaks for itself!
As far as Richard "Dick",,,he isn't as bad as others. He hasn't hurt our state to bad and Balances out Kit Bond (R), JoAnn Emerson (R) Roy Blunt (R) and John Aschroft (R) Our state is pretty well in the middle on most issues. We have a "Dick" Bob Holden as Governor but I'll only vote that mistake once. Ike Skelton (D) is one of the best and strongest supporters nation wide of the military.

Second,,,,,where would your state herd numbers be if there wasn't any DOW?
If it wasn't for Federal and NR money "our money and land" as you put it, there would be no DOW to manage anything. They couldn't even pay their utilities. If there wasn't any DOW then it'd be open season year around for "everybody" How would you like that?

Now, why do you think it is that your wonderful state is not like other states? The eastern part is mostly like Kansas. I know they errigate lots of alfalfa and crops in CO. You are fom Colorado and seem to be an expert. What is the reason there are not as many numbers as other states? Other states have less habitat as your state.

Offline
Location: Missouri
Joined: 02/14/2004
Posts: 62
non-residents no more?

JLM
I see you either want it all to yourself or are not thinking about tomorrow. Either way, you should stop and think about it a little.
Missouri has to many deer I agree. It has more deer than ever known before. But,,,,it wasn't to many years ago it had virtually none. Then the people voted in a constitutional amendment to create the Conservation Commission. Their funding was generally permit sales based. With this in mind,,,they raised and traded and released deer across the state. They sold permits to take deer and manage the herd. The numbers had to be watched but they still had to have the money in order to keep up on their ideas of management. Over time it grew as well as the deer herd. They have taken money from permit sales and funded private land management and programs for the wildlife at the smallest levels. In 76 the people of the state voted in a sales tax ear marked just for the Conservation Department. We didn't need to sell permits anymore to manage wildlife. No the MDC is pulled from all sides on how to spend their money. Some small interest groups are even trying to get the tax repealed. They say MDC isn't spending their money the way they should. It's a double edged sword. Still MO kept selling NR permits because it brings money into the local economies. With this much drain and unlimited tags sold in some areas the deer population is growing. Why,,,,,,,MANAGEMENT
It isn't because someone killed a deer,,,,it's because someone bought a tag.
I admit, I don't know all there is to know about your state,, but,,,,I keep hearing all about how good things are and how good the hunting is and how big your ranches are. Folks,,,,there are more cattle in riding in trailers headed to the stackyards in Missouri than there is cattle in your whole state. Why,,,,, MANAGEMENT Now I'm not wanting to argue over cattle, I'm on this NonResident topic.Go back and read some of the earlier posts. It seems everybody else has quit and you are pulling up the tail. Yes, you are right, the game belongs to the people of the state and is manged by the state. Who funds that game management? And you're wanting to shut off the folks that's funding what you say is yours? That'd be fine for a few years. What about your kids? Hel:, what about you in a few years? If you don't get in a car wreck or die of old age you may want to hunt elk or sheep or whatever 20 years from now. If they're not managed, "correctly" you may not have much of a chance. Folks, I said it before and I'll say it again, I don't want to come to your state to hunt and probably never will but,,,,,,It's the principal of these selfish ideas that this topic started over. It's mstakes like this that hurt our hunting future and our kids future.

Offline
Location: Idaho
Joined: 09/20/2003
Posts: 138
non-residents no more?

.
First off I don’t think anyone has quit we can see that by the amount of readers.
Second if the prices keep going the way they are only the rich will be hunting legally in 20 years so lets put that point to rest. Cry

Second to game populations, mule deer and white tail are completely different and cannot be manage the same, we have found that out here in Idaho where the white tails in the north get as big a mules, not the size of hunting dogs. Wink

I would also point out that if you don’t fill that tag, within a few years you also would not have a NR purchase for long.

What you are seeing here in the west, Idaho anyway is zone hunts .A, B tags. Oregon has gone to draw only for deer as well as elk. This is supposable to split up hunters and reduce pressure yet there has been very little if any enforcement of the zone System and Oregon’s situation has forced many of their hunters across the river if they wish to hunt big game.

We also have the green gate issue with the forest service who is pretending to manage game and thus closing off large tracks of public land to only those who have horses or like me who will walk back down closed roads just to get away from the crowds.
Combined that with what JLM stated, our general season are still in the 1 to 2 week range with a take of 1 animal and that’s usually buck or bull only.
So what you end up with is every hunter resident or NR with a ATV, handicap sticker, children, 20 cases of beer , a pup tent or camper crammed onto the mountain roads , calling any wide spot home and seeing hundreds of does for ever forky strapped to their hood.

BUT ha lets bust this Nut wide open shall we.
Why is it that NR would want to hunt in another state “ now I remind you im not against NR so keep that in mind” here’s what I think is the main reasons/ my reasons.
1) They don’t have the game in their state IE elk, mule deer, goats, moose..
2) they wish to hunt with a family member or friend
3) the eco crowd has made it very hard to hunt in their own states
4) they are after a trophy
5) a friend of a friend got one up there one time and knows a good place ? LMAO sorry just had to add that in.
6) the impression that they will find thousands of miles of public land to rome in solitude

What we however are missing IMO is a deeper problem management either over or under.
Who manages the game the F&G, DOW or the enviro crowd / forest service
I have always been of the opinion that some NR hunting is a good thing as they take back what they have seen and hopefully change their state or maybe change the one they are hunting in by pointing out “-” in that system .
IMO managing for a trophy herd , weather it be a bucks only or minimum point only for to long of a time is not sound management and lets face it that’s the #1 draw for NR hunters
Relaying on NR hunting is not sound management nor is the NR who relies on out of state hunting managing their state correctly. it’s a 2-sided coin .

Offline
Location: N. Utah
Joined: 04/01/2004
Posts: 60
non-residents no more?

Capatchee your six reasons hits it right on the button. Here in Utah the people I talked to always want to go to Idaho. for some reasons or the other. "But I always see them come back empty handed also. so why are they going out of state, Their reason so that they can shoot an animal. apparently they aren't doing it So what is the big deal about NR? Going to another state. I have looked in the proc. for Utah and their sure isn't very many NR tags compared to resident tags maybe 10% are NR. They aren't taking anything away from me. If they want to shoot a trophy animal they would most likely would have to go on private property and pay a higher price. And If they want to shoot a nice next to trophy animal they would in-turn have to go where its only foot/ or horseback.

JLM
Offline
Location: Colorado
Joined: 04/24/2004
Posts: 14
non-residents no more?

The reason your deer population has grown so much is not so much to do with "MANAGEMENT", but the fact your dealing with WHITETAIL DEER !!!

The whitetail breeds at an earlier age than mule deer and is more likely to have twins instead of a single fawn. Plus back east there are more favorable conditions for deer. Weather, food, predators or lack of, etc.....

Here our deer have to deal with drought, decreasing winter range, severe winters, mtn lions, bears, coyote's, wildfire, Ponderosa pine & P.J. encroachment, all of which makes for a tough living. Back east, even where weather can be extreme, much of the land in in agriculture production so there is food everywhere. That and food plots that easterners need to hunt over Wink

I'm not against NR hunters, but there is only so much to go around out here.

Offline
Location: NE Minnesota
Joined: 01/14/2004
Posts: 144
non-residents no more?

I know this is off subject but I had to butt in after this statement.

Quote:
Here our deer have to deal with drought, decreasing winter range, severe winters, mtn lions, bears, coyote's, wildfire, Ponderosa pine & P.J. encroachment, all of which makes for a tough living.

The only items on this list that are actually true are drought, decreasing winter range, maybe winters(there are severe winters out east too!), and the habitat change. Many places in the east have coyotes, bears and even mtn. lions and wolves. Wildfire rarely kills deer, and in fact, creates better habitat for them, besides the fact that there is wildfire in the east too, though not on the same scale.
The biggest factors in the recent whitetail explosion is habitat, food availability, and less severe winters than normal.

Offline
Location: Idaho
Joined: 09/20/2003
Posts: 138
non-residents no more?

I think that the difference is in the reading on JLM's post.
I read it to mean that on top of all this in the west there simply is not a consistent food source that is maintained in the east by agriculture by shear % of land.
If in the west we have a bad winter or drought the % of Agra land as a food source is restrictive to the point the F&G set up feeding stations and pay out subsidies for crop or harvest damage.

I also find his statement to white tail to be true in my observations as well so there for even though eastern game have in many cases the same predators there is little impact on the herds

So if say we have a hot spring and then a late heavy mountain snow a loss of 5%-20% on calf/fawn numbers is not un heard of, or if we have an early wet spring pneumonia becomes a factor in mortalities as well.

I found his post interesting and a different take that I myself had not really too a good look at.

JLM
Offline
Location: Colorado
Joined: 04/24/2004
Posts: 14
non-residents no more?

I hope you guys aren't taking me for some selfish S.O.B. that wants it all to myself and hate's the sight of an out of state license plate. I've helped out more than a couple NR's. Best one was two years ago a guy from Vermont came out to CO for the first time and couldn't find a mule deer to save his life. So I pulled him out of the pine's and out into the sage and he took home a little forked horn. You'd think he shot the next record book animal !!!

I'm just concerned about the way things are going out West. Another major problem out here that I forgot to mention above is the invasion of Cheat Grass and other noxious weeds that have little value to wildlife. Thats why you can only bring in certified Hay from out of state. Cheat Grass provides little in the way of nutrition, takes over as the dominate plant and dries out very quickly making it extremley vulnerable to fire.

PJ's are extremely bad (thick) due to our fire suppression policy of the last 100 years. In my area they are extremely thick and nothing grows under or around them. Along the Arkansas river west of I-25 used to be considered one of Colorado's deer factories until the PJ's and cheat grass took over. Now the deer herd if close to being 40% under the long term population objective.

While I'm here preaching, I hope you guys would consider joining the Mule Deer Foundation.

Good luck in the draws

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