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Location: Utah
Joined: 10/12/2003
Posts: 25
non-residents no more?

Sorry Captchee but hunter numbers are way down in my state.

There was a time in the late 80's when opening day of the Utah deer hunt drew over 250,000 deer hunters. Since then our state has gone to a quota system but still has a very hard time selling less than 100,000 permits. Usually we have left overs in some areas.

I would bet that Utah now has the most expensive resident tags in the west or at least ranks right up among the top 3 and we just received another hike for next year.

I dont know the whole picture in your state but I can say that a few drawings that were once over-subscribed are now undersubscribed (Southeast Non-Resident Deer)

Happy Huntin

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Location: Idaho
Joined: 09/20/2003
Posts: 138
non-residents no more?

We are not talking total numbers of draw tags sold here
Lets look at total tags/ licenses sold, why?
Well for one many hunters do not put in for draws, I don’t why?

Well let’s look at unit 22 here in Idaho for last year for just elk
Over 700 cow tags for that unit alone and its not one of the bigger units.
To top it off the herd in that unit has never and I will say again never been estimated ad over 2000 total for all sizes of bulls and cows
How many hunters dose the state say used that unit?
I ask for info and what I got was a reply stating that over 9000 people said the hunted unit 22 yet IDFG doesn’t really know, as it is part of a 3 unite zone hunt

Now why would anyone ever put in for something like that especially when you consider that this one unit opened for archery on 28 AUG then bird season on something like the 7th of SEPT. Then the end of SEPT the fist 200 cow tags opened as well as the B tag any weapon. Only to be followed by general deer season and spike bull with another 200 cow tags and another week of any bull. Followed by another 200 cow tags that run through DEC?
there is always some draw tags not sold yet Sure seems to be a lot of folks out there
Bottom line is the total number of licenses sold, not the amount of tags not bought to amount of tags filled or even the hunter number compared to total population .
All three of those can very drastically from year to year or from 5 year plan to 5 year plan. When you see the overall total of licenses sold drop by 25% or more IMO then you have to worry

bitmasher's picture
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Moderator
Location: Colorado
Joined: 02/27/2002
Posts: 2973
non-residents no more?

I agree that in some situations like with moose, pronghorn, and big horn tags the NR/R should shift some like to 80/20. But the problem is the input policy paints with way to broad of a brush. This 60/40 to 80/20 migration is across all game management. That's nuts.

With computer technology it seems they should be able to ride a scale between 60/40 and 80/20 per game type, depending on population objectives, with minimal over head. Its the 21st century.

I support the NR's because:

A.) They help CO's economy. Hunting is big on the western slope. No ifs-ands-or-buts about it.

B.) They keep my in-state hunting costs exceedingly cheap. Captchee hit the nail on the head. Residents squack at minor rate increases, but pushing out NR's will, with out a doubt, push up resident costs A LOT. Think about $500 for a NR bull tag, $30 for a resident. You slash the NR elk hunters in half, then keep the DOW budget the same. The DOW does NOT receive tax money. Thus your resident tag cost is going to go way up. There is price for pushing out NR's, none of which is mentioned in the policy.

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Location: St. Paul, MN
Joined: 02/07/2004
Posts: 90
non-residents no more?

As a hunter who must go out of my home state for some big game, I honestly don't mind paying more for the tag to a certain point. However, if states are not careful with their cost/benefit analysis, they may lose a lot of revenue from the NRs. It is a scary trend when people start seeing NRs as a pests rather than fellow hunters who simply want what residents want; the unforgettable experience of hunting in western states.

Offline
Location: Idaho
Joined: 09/20/2003
Posts: 138
non-residents no more?

You make a good point MNHunter.
I have to ask though, when you pay that kind of money for say an elk tag would most be happy with enjoying the hunt and going home with memories or maybe a small cow?

I don’t believe so and I am the same way, if I was to pay the 5 thou for an Alaska moose hunt, I better have one hell of a hunt with lots of meat and a big rack to come home with.
Now on the other hand if I was told a NR tag will cost you 50 dollars and its a draw for hunt and you only could take a smaller bull or cow, im telling ya Alaskan F&W would be sick of herein from this child even if I came home empty handed and a 2 week poor attempt for a beard.

The problem is that doesn’t happen. Sense the F&G's only income comes from hunters and fisherman within the state NR revenue is becomes a "must have" so now instead of regulating the herds/ fishing/ birds for their benefit the table is turned over to regulating “them” for the best draw for the NR which ends up being bigger is better.
So where dose that leave the resident, well with units with 4 point or better deer hunts "8 point for you eastern guys "
5 point or better elk seasons with draw only hunts for cows.
Not to mention the anti hunting groups that piss a cat without ever spending a dime on wildlife within a state yet cause the F&G to spend our money

I personally wouldn’t have a problem with lower NR numbers and higher resident fee’s if I could see where my money was being spent but that’s just not what happens. Each year the NR numbers climb the resident tags go up and the F&G get new top of the line vehicles and 4 wheelers yet you never see them except at a check station.
They spend thousands on planting bull gnat’s and other bugs or studies that you never see anyone doing, yet very little on the wildlife and hunters that rely on them .
As some here know I grew up in the IDF&G dept and remember how hard my father and others worked
And to see the state of the dept to day pisses me off to know end.

sorry LOL rant off

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Location: Colorado
Joined: 02/27/2003
Posts: 394
non-residents no more?

"so now instead of regulating the herds/ fishing/ birds for their benefit the table is turned over to regulating “them” for the best draw for the NR which ends up being bigger is better."

Well, if they're doing that in Idaho I feel very sorry for you. I can absolutely guarantee you, though, that in the two states that I'm extremely familiar with--Colorado and Wyoming--this is not even close to being the case.

Offline
Location: Idaho
Joined: 09/20/2003
Posts: 138
non-residents no more?

If you have any lakes or reservoirs where tournament fishing is done that has a minimum size limit or hunts that have 3, 4 point or better that’s exactly what is being done. You never see bass pro at reservoirs where the average size is 8 to 10 inches do you, nor when looking for a draw hunt do you look for the most game or in the case of deer the area with the most 4 point or better take average .

these types of regulations promote a large average size and thus produce a better statistical average and thus a better draw for NR hunters.
If you doubt that take a good look at the states with the highest % of NR hunting and you will find what?
That statistically they consistently produce trophy size game and lots of them. Their % of hunter take is high. Ask yourself dose this produce a better heard?
Dose this make for better wildlife habitat?
If your answer is no then who and what is this type of management for.
Funny you should mention Colorado, nice flyer they put out looks like they are managing for NR hunters as well ?

I .COLORADO
Application Period/Deadlines: Big game brochures are available in late February, and application deadline for deer, elk, antelope, bear, and moose is early April (usually the 2nd or 3rd). The drawing is in early June and hunters will be notified by mail or they can check the results on the Colorado Division of Wildlife Web site (http://www.wildlife.state.co.us).
License Fees: Residents pay $23.25 for deer, $33.25 for elk, $23.25 for antelope, $33.25 for bear and $203.25 for moose; nonresidents pay $273.25 for deer, $453.25 for elk, $273.25 for antelope, $253.25 for bear, and $1503.25 for moose.
Getting Started: The Division of Wildlife's general phone number is (303) 297-1192 or contact Us on the Web.

Going from one big-game mecca to another, Alaskan Ed Foster arrowed this big Colorado 6x6 from 15 yards.

Hunter Safety Requirement: Anyone born on or after Jan. 1, 1949 must have passed an approved hunter education course in order to purchase a Colorado hunting license. Hunters also need a Conservation Certificate, issued free upon purchase of a hunting license.
Guides/Outfitters: You can get information on guides and outfitters in Colorado by contacting the Colorado Outfitters Association at (970) 876-0543 or www.colorado-outfitters.com.
Trophy Units: Northwest Colorado — GMUs 2, 10, 21, 201 — has some of the biggest bucks, and Middle Park — GMUs 18, 27, 28 and 37 — is a strong deer area. Northwest Colorado also has some of the biggest bulls. GMU's 8, 19, 20, 76 and 191 are managed for quality hunting. As for bear, look into GMUs 42, 61, 62, 74, 77, 78, 85, 421 and 521.
Preference Points: Necessary to have a chance at drawing a trophy or quality unit. Hunters build preference points each time they are unsuccessful in the drawing. Hunters may also apply for a single preference point.
Notes: Elk hunters should apply for the first season as many units have been under subscribed. Leftover elk licenses become available in early August.

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Joined: 03/23/2004
Posts: 1
non-residents no more?

Sorry, I goofed on the other tries and wasn't sure how to do this. Anyway, a little misconception going on out there. Idaho limits the number of NR tags sold each year. Go to Idaho government web site and look up IDAPA for f&g (commission regulations). IDAPA 13.01.04.600 you will see that each year only 12,800 NR deer tags for regular or clearwater can be sold, 12,815 NR A or B tag elk tags for all zones can be sold, and 1,200 SE Idaho NR deer tags. One exception includes the Idaho Lifetime license holders who move out of state have to pay NR tag fees but are not counted in the quota. IDAPA 13.01.08.260.02.a Says that not more than 1 permit shall go to NR with controlled hunt of less that 10 permit. Also, that no more than 10% of tags can go to NR in other controlled hunts of more than 10 permits. Example, 100 permit con. hunt maximum of 10 permits can go to NR 90 to residents. Yes, Nr are a big contributor of funds to f&g but controlled hunts are not set up to favor NR. Also, there was only one Unit in Idaho that had a 3pt or better for deer in 2003 and the same unit had brow tine or bigger for elk. I don't know where you're getting the info on point restrictions. There may be a 4pt or better deer hunt in SE Idaho for 2004 but this is coming about because of "resident" concerns. So the number of NR tags is not climbing, your license fee is the same in 2004 that it was in 2000, that's 5 hunting seasons without an increase. I've see the f&g officer trucks and they are far cry from being top of the line. The officer's in my area have no power windows, locks, or seats. They don't even have a fold down center consoles (they come standard on ext.cab trucks, must have to get a deduction like not ordering a truck bed) and am/fm radio with no cassette or cd player. Check out your local county or city officer they have all the power stuff, not that I don't think they need it. The facts.

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Moderator
Joined: 01/27/2002
Posts: 7916
non-residents no more?

Welcome Nanuck!

No problem on the extra post. Its been deleted.

Offline
Location: Idaho
Joined: 09/20/2003
Posts: 138
non-residents no more?

First of welcome nanuck
Now to point.
On R license if you look back you will find that since 1985 license have tripled in the state.
You will also find that the IDFG has listed a cost per vehicle of 28 thousand, purchase over the last 2 and next 3 years and consisting of all dodge 4x4 SL vehicles. A far cry from a plan Jane Chevy or the IH 3/4 ton of old .I don’t know what one you seen but it sure isn’t my neighbor’s rig or the one issue to my cusian for that mater.

You will also find a list of Honda ATV 4X4 not 2 wheel drives but 4x4s. You will also find a purchase of 200 satellite phones at a cost of 900 per and a contract for 90 dollars per month min charge with an agreement to install in the rest of the fleet by the year 2008. Never mind that IDFG has once again ask for an increase for the next 5 years that we sportsman narrowly got turned down.
The list goes on and on .
And you know all those hatcheries you see did you know that Idaho power owns them and foot most of the bill not IDFG ya buddy that’s right
Request a copy of the state budget submitted by IDFG and you would spit nails OH and when you do better have you check book in hand because they will charge you.

Now to the NR situation on more the one local meeting IDFG has been confronted with lists and LP numbers of vehicles showing that NR quotas for given areas are based on total region % and not on the zone or unit % like they want you to believe , its a total line.

Now what you are stating about only 12 thousand for the clear water region maybe true and if you take a look at the map that provided in your regs you will see that it looks very big. Well im here to tell you it has one of the least amounts of roads of any unite baring the salmon and contains mostly land that a mountain goat wouldnt climb.
So now where dose that put those 12 thousand people mmmmmmmm not to mention the resident population so now if no more the 10% of the total hunter population for that region is available that leave a resident population of 120 thousand folks all crammed into that area.
??? Seems very un realistic

While your at it how about posting total license sold each year since 2000 heck lets go back to 95 thats what your 10% NR quota is based on, you will see that each year that number has grown even thought the % of hunter to population has dropped
I’m sorry bud but that dog just doesn’t hunt.

Now to the hunts
Lets start with the big horn sheep draw or more like auction any idea of the winning bid $?

then Lets look at the deer season to. While next year you may find one 4-point unit for the last two years there have been 14 different hunts in that same area for nothing bigger the 2-point. You will also find that southeastern Idaho has one of the most constant record book takes in the state and one of the highest NR tag quotas.
I can list the units and dates if you like.

Now as for elk in the unit I hunt in ‘unit 22 “ you will find that the hunt opened with archery on august 30 and closed with a draw hunt on Nov 30 this doesn’t include the bird hunters and it also had a spike only hunt available.
Now lets go down to the draws, not for the zone as a hole but just that unit which is less the 30 mile by 30 miles. What do you find?
Let me tell you from October 1 through the 14 they made available 500 permits then from the Nov 10 through the 30 of NOV another 500. All that on top of the regular general season.
Now if you want to do a zone draw numbers for an area you will see 2100 draw tags and 60% of that area is private land care to guess how many of those draw are for cows only ?
And while you asking the IDFG for info ask them for the estimated herd numbers for that are that should really piss you off.

Now if you look at the bear season you will find that it is closed and has been for the last 10 years except by draw. They tell us that it’s due to low bear count, never mind we locals have been trying to get them to listen to us as the place is crawling with them. Last spring on a 5-day spring dog hunt we treed 11 different bears and took a nice 400 lb black.
We suspect that the real reason for it being closed it for the national rec are , people just gotta see bears.

SO where dose all that info comes
The IDF&G employee newsletter, state budgets, local IDF&G meetings. And just plan locals who have to live in the middle of this mess, maybe you havnt seen the “ IDFG not welcome violators WILL be prosecuted” signs yet .
Please do not take my writing as being angry to you, im not and if it seems that way I will apologize right now. Its just IMO the ID&G dept has become the sportsman of this states 2nd worst enemy only beat out by the enviro crowd and that really sad..

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