Can someone explain New changes to the way CPW refunds licenses
14 replies [Last post]
Fri, 2016-02-05 15:36
New CO rules
Sat, 2016-02-06 10:18#1
The new changes are only if
The new changes are only if you are turning in a tag for which you have already drawn or purchased over the counter. The refund process from when you do not draw a limited license is still the same.
That said, really the only significant change is that they charge you $15 to turn in a license now when it used to be free. It has always been where you have to choose between forfeiting the cost of the license you drew and having your preference points restored to what they were pre-drawing or forfeiting your preference points and getting the cost of the license refunded to you.
Too many people are drawing licenses and then turning them back in because they have higher priorities. It's really annoying for me because a lot of licenses get turned in for hunts that I apply for but dont draw. Which those licenses that get turned in are generally not put back out as leftovers.
I am glad CPW is cracking down on it and making it less desirable to apply for everything and then turn them all back in. Im a resident so I usually just call it a donation if for some reason I do not get to use one of the tags for which I drew. I could see non-residents being a little more reluctant to swallow an out of state tag price if they werent going to be able to use it.
Sat, 2016-02-06 15:40#2
Thanks for the info.
Thanks for the info.
Sun, 2016-02-07 15:43#3
Another significant change is that the refund process has to be complete 30 or more days prior to the start of the season which the tag is valid for. I too think that this change is seriously overdue. I have heard way too many stories where someone had a very desirable tag and they arrive a week early to scout. From their scouting they decide their chances of filling their tag are low so they turn the tag back the day prior to season so they can try again next year. Meanwhile the tag goes unused because the CPW does not have time to reissue the tag. The CPW will now have a process where the tag can at least be issued to someone that wants to hunt. How they are going to do that is going to be determined. Website says they will have a plan in July.
Tue, 2016-02-16 09:10#4
I like the sounds of them
I like the sounds of them putting returned tags back out to folks. Maybe they'll do it like sheep goat and moose tags where they have a call down list for each hunt code. Sort of an alternates list. The thirty days would also help aid in their ability to complete that process. I think this is definitely a step in the right direction, regardless of what some of the naysayers are thinking.
Tue, 2016-02-09 16:21#5
Im sorry, I have a great deal of difficulty accepting this change that supposedly solves one problem yet holds hostage a huge number of people who aren’t the problem. Im not talking gun control, im talking CP&W control.
Let me start by acknowledging that I never knew there was a problem with people turning in “premium” licenses; turning one in never occurred to me. I guess im a little naïve when it comes to taking advantage like that. That said, my points are primarily directed at the overwhelming number of hunters who have average licenses: say those that take 5 or fewer points.
The simple fact is most people are honest and sometimes they have things occur in life that are beyond their control and within 30 days of a given season start. People and family members get sick, work schedules change (and it’s not just for uniformed service members), life circumstance changes, kids sports teams make playoffs, and sometimes priorities have to be adjusted for whatever reason and that list is literally endless. Most people apply or get licensees well in advance of opening day and many get several licenses in order to extend the already short hunting seasons. There is no way of knowing what the future holds. It’s very disingenuous to penalize people for those things that cause them to not be able to use a license they planned on using 6+ months ago when they applied for it.
For licenses that take 5 or fewer points (pick a reasonable dividing line)
If it’s only $3 to apply, why $15 to request a refund? That doesn’t add up. If you want to charge a $3 handling fee I guess…but $15 is absurd and frankly no deterrent for the “problem people”. It only hits the average guy. CP&W wins/hunter loses. This is bad PR!
The 30 day in advance is arbitrary. There shouldn’t be any restrictions. Throw the license on the leftover list next time it’s updated and tie it to the “donors” CID so that it can’t be re issued to the same person. Someone may get lucky and good for them. The CP&W sells the license and someone gets a great hunt without points by being in the right place at the right time. Win/win.
It’s never been right that the DOW forces you to choose between money and points. Give both back. This should be (is) easy and, it’s the right thing to do. Good PR.
For premium licenses that take more than 5 points.
If someone turns in a license for any reason, they cant apply for 2 years for that species; not even preference points. I would only make exceptions for documented and egregious issues that would prevent using the licenses. If you cant or are not willing to prove it, too bad, you lose the license and your points. OR, Notify one or two runners up and let them know that if a license is turned in, they will get it if they want and it could be the day before the season opens. If they agree, great, problme solved. Still no restrictions on returning the points, money or a timeline if you do prove it. Make the bad players pay, not the people who have something come up that is beyond their control.
It frustrates me that I have to spend almost $4,000 in a very short timeframe each year to put my family of 4 in for licenses. Especially when applying for Sheep, Moose, and Goat license for a teen and a pre teen when there is no chance for either to draw. But, if I don’t, they will likely be in my boat. Im 50 from CO, and have NEVER drawn one of those license. A fathers hope is they get a chance in their 30s.
Planning in Feb for a hunt in Sept or Oct and juggling cost, school schedules (un published sports schedules), work, and taking into account what you should draw versus what you may draw, and what you will end up pulling out of your third point of contact requires a no kidding spreadsheet to keep straight. What happens if my wife and I draw a muzzle loading elk, my boys draw muzzle loading doe and we all draw rifle bear. Then, my wife draws a sheep license? Obviously we are going to put all of our efforts into what amounts to a once in a lifetime hunt for her. Because of that, I have to choose between points, license fees, and application fees for all of us?! That’s not right! I should be able to turn in what licenses im not going to use and concentrate on my wife’s sheep. This (along with several others), is an extremely likely scenario in any given year for my family. The CP&W wants everyone to fit neatly in their paradigm and life doesn’t work that way. And when people don’t fit that arbitrary paradigm, the
CP&W attitude is so sad too bad for you, I already got your money. This really is going to make me reconsider hunting as a family event and that is a loss for the CP&W. And im not the only family of 4 that hunts in CO.
This new way just smacks of “how can we keep more money for us” and im a little tired of Govt putting self ahead of the people it serves. What’s best for the CP&W isn’t necessarily best for wildlife, hunters or the people of CO, something that im beginning to believe they have forgotten.
CP&W needs to re address this and honestly open it up to the hunting public in a way that actually reaches them in order to help generate a solution with their buy in. In fact, these kind of decisions should be handled with significant public input all the time.
Sun, 2016-02-14 19:35#6
We are a long way apart on this one, will just have to agree to disagree.
Good luck in the draw.
Mon, 2016-02-15 22:17#7
No worries peanut. A good
No worries peanut. A good discussion is valuable and I do see your perspective about turning in desirable licenses. Do you have the statistics on how many are turned in? I would like to see that data, it would be interesting.
What bothers me most is, last year I had the liberty of some flexibility WRT balancing what license I actually draw with work, a family of 4 who also draws licenses, and other life’s unplanned events. This year, I have lost some of that. And, for the pleasure of loosing that freedom, I also have to pay. The real kicker is there is a solution that works for everyone if CPW was actually interested solving the problem of license turned in at the last minute (maybe thats not the real issue for them). I strongly suspect, I would love to be proven wrong, that an opportunity to generate additional revenue was a highly weighted topic presented in the decision brief. And, the CPW knows that unless the general public really gets in an uproar, there’s nothing to stop them from picking on the few who do this; honest or not. An uproar is unlikely since we don’t come together well as sportsmen. Over the years, there seems to be a lot of “well, that stinks but it doesn’t effect me”. It would be nice to see that change. I suspect we will continue to politely disagree.
Good luck in the draw yourself peanut, hunt safe.
Tue, 2016-02-16 20:59#8
turned in licenses
In my opinion this new reg is focused on highly sought after licenses. For example the either sex elk tags for the NW corner of the state. Very few tags are issued and then have a tag holder decide this is not the year and turn the tag back last minute. He/she gets points back and is at the top of the list the next year. Talk about point creep, fewer hunters burning their points and more with lots of PP. I think this is the reason they implemented this change.
15 bucks is not going to deter anyone in my opinion. If the CPW was really looking to raise money then they should have made that fee much larger. The 30 day window is more of a deterrent.
I have known over the last few years that I was subject to schedules that were beyond my control and my hunting ws a lower priority. Simple way to avoid that is to build PP's so when the time is right I can hunt when it works for me. this may not work for everyone but that is the way I have prioritized my commitments. I have found that there are few situations occur where a person does not have 30 days notice.
If/when I draw my limited tags, I will not be looking at turning the tag back. I will be making plans to make the most of the opportunty. I just worry that with point creep increasing as it is I may not have that opportunity to draw.
Thu, 2016-02-18 07:28#9
As a long-time CO elk hunter (23 years, missed 2 seasons) and a non-resident I agree with Centennial on this one. I look forward to going into the CO mountains every fall with my hunting buddy (a resident) and setting up our camp for our DIY elk hunt. I can see your point on the low-odds draw either-sex tags but the fact that you have to give up either PP or $$$ to turn a tag in is a real hose job. It's not a big deal (or as big a deal) if you're a resident and only lay out $49 for a tag. Sure, it's 50 bucks, and no one wants to throw it away. How would it be if you laid out $629 for a bull tag that you've been banking points for for 17 years? Say you draw that tag that you've been saving points for all those years. You applied in April, got laid off in June and started a new job in August. You just started so you don't have any vacation yet and you got hired because of a big project that will be going on all through hunting season. You either gotta give up 600 bucks (which you can't really afford to do) or give up 17 years worth of PP and start over. This is just a hypothetical situation and all of them are not that extreme. How about if the surrender fee was $49? The same for NR as it is for Residents? I don't have a problem with the 30 day window. That should deal with the people giving up tags because they don't see the elk they're looking for when scouting.
Here's my situation:
I have 15 points in UT for LE elk. I am thinking of putting in for LE Muzzleloader and I "might" draw. I would be very close and it depends on who applies. As of last year I would be tied for #3 in line if the same people apply this year, assuming no one in front of me died of old age waiting to draw. They only issue 1 or 2 tags to NR in that unit. Because of application dates, I would need to apply for the LE UT tag and my MZ CO tag without knowing which I will draw. What if I draw both? I can't do two trips so close to each other due to work and my UT tag (when/if I draw) will have to be a full court press operation. That means extra vacation on the front end to scout. I don't bank PP in CO (I used to but I learned my lesson), but if I did, I would have to give up my PP or my application fee ($629), assuming I drew in CO and UT. That's seems a little unfair to me. I'm just a NR so my opinion probably doesn't carry much weight with CPW. I understand that there are differences of opinion and I can repect that. Point creep is very frustrating. That's why I don't bank points in CO any more. UT has the same problem. It just doesn't affect me as much because I don't go there every year. I just fill out the app and send the money. It's getting expensive just to keep my points and I want to draw a tag before I'm too old to enjoy it.
Fri, 2016-02-19 08:43#10
NH Hunter, I understand the
I understand the frustration with both point creep and the new refund rules. The new refund rules will hit me at some point as my job has lots of ebbs and flows and you can never predict that far out. I also understand that it is tougher on a NR since it is the full tag price but keep in mind that Colorado still remains the easiest and cheapest state that I know of to hunt year after year for NRs as well as to build points in. The fact that for 3$ a year, a NR can build preference points and still come any year theyd like to and hunt OTC Bulls shows that CPW does value out of state tags. Hell technically NRs have a better chance to draw cow moose tags than CO residents do in many cases which frustrates me cause I love moose meat and would hunt a cow every year if the tags werent earmarked for NR only.
Unfortunately there is no answer that gives everyone what they want and solves every issue. The new legislation fixes a few issues and creates a few different ones. Like you said folks with differing opinions can still respect one another's point of view without agreeing with each other.