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COMeatHunter's picture
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OK, I'll bite.  No more

OK, I'll bite.  No more sarcasm from me, would appreciate the same in response.  

Let me re-ask my original questions.  Why is there a need to reduce current archery or muzzleloader seasons to accomodate "more" primitive weapons?  Isn't it reasonable for those who wish to use more primitive weapons to just use them in the current season structures?  Or better yet, why not lobby to add additional seasons and leave what we already have in place?  IMO there isn't enough pressure from either bow or muzzle hunters to reduce the quality of the hunt by just adding another special muzzle season that's restrictive to PRB, flintlock, etc.

It's not about justifying the need for some hunters who want to hunt with truly primitive weapons.  It's about adding to what we already have and not taking it away.  Especially when those who wish to hunt with a longbow or flintlock can already do so within the context of the what's already on the books.

 

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A few reasons. It would be

A few reasons. It would be nice to be in the field with like minded hunters. Flintlock hunters would be dedicated muzzleloaders, and not just someone looking for an extra season to hunt as most inlines hunters are. As it is now muzzy tags are getting hard to get. Everybody has jumped on the inline train, because they're so easy to learn, and are more like the rifles they're used to. If they had to shoot a flintlock i'm sure they wouldn't bother. With flintlock guns, and the hunters who would use them. They could drop the blaze orange law, and let the hunters dress in period clothing. If they had a primitive season. They could make the other muzzy season a modern ML season. They could use scopes, and sabots like almost every other state does. However, now they have a huge advantage, and should move the season out of the rut. Everybody is happy, and the original intention of the ML season is restored.

COMeatHunter's picture
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I hadn't thought about the

I hadn't thought about the orange, agreed that would certainly be an improvement for flintlock hunters.  I would disagree about allowing scopes, sabots, etc., for the modern ML seasons.  Keep it like it is.  The huge advantage you assume exists only produces overall statewide success rates of 20%.  Much better than the archery hunter's 13%, but not really reflective of a huge advantage.  By limiting the sights on the weapon you limit the far majority of users to 100 yards or less.  I know you have an exceptional buddy who shoots his inline accurately to 200 yards, but that is very rare and not the norm.

I would also agree that tags are getting harder and harder to get.  As you point out, many hunters look at ML tags as extra or bonus hunts and look to pick up leftovers.  But for the dedicated ML guys, they aren't looking for leftovers are they?  They're putting in for their tags in the draw as 1st and 2nd choices.  You may weed out a few of these fellows from the masses if you limit their gun to a flintlock, but really where you're going to weed out folks is in the leftovers.  That's not going to make your tag any easier to draw.  

I would also point out the positive aspects of inline muzzleloaders.  Yes, it makes ML shooting and hunting easier in terms of handling and maintaining your weapon.  So much easier that many are now enjoying a shooting sport they hadn't before.  And if they are like me (I'm pretty average, so I'm sure there are many like me) they are now building their own flintlock rifle just to go out and shoot it.  Inlines are cheap, simple, and fun.  We shoot them every time we make a trip to the range, just because they are fun to shoot.  When our flintlock is finished, we'll take it out every time we go shoot too.  And yes, we might even decide to try to hunt with it...when we buy a leftover "bonus" tag.

I'm not arguing that primitive ML hunters don't deserve a special season.  My point is find a way to add their season to Colorado's current structure without removing or reducing other hunter's opportunities.  In the current political climate we need more people involved in hunting and shooting sports.  Within reason, the lower we can make the barriers to entering the sport the better.

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No need to remove the modern

No need to remove the modern ML season. Bow hunters don't need a whole month. Give them 2 weeks, and two weeks to the two ML seasons. There's also a gap between the end of bow season, and 1st rifle that can be used. The reason I say give the modern ML season scopes and sabots is because now the DOW thinks it has a primitive ML season. That's why they stay with open sights and conicals They could drop that idea if they had a real primitive season to go with the modern ML season. It's not so much the iron sights that make a flintlock handicapped compared to the inline. It's the PRB. It has no fpe left at longer distance. The modern conicals that inlines 1-28 twist can use are good for twice the distance. The ML season as it is now is just half ass. It's not modern compared to the rest of the country, and it's not primitive compared to some other states. Frankly, it's a joke.

edit.. My posts are screwed up. I make many paragraphs, and it comes out as one big paragraph. WTH?

BleuBijou's picture
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Points

You both bring good points to the table. Old school, no orange in leathers with horn and possibles bag and new school in lines and bullets and powders. We know that these animals are hunted for for Months on end and most choose to end up on Private ground as a safe haven where, if your like me refuse to pay or choose not to pay is a better way to say it , trespass fee's to hunt. I am not knocking landowners here who have the right. What I am saying is I know the DOW has been trying to find ways to keep the animals off the private for as long as possible to give people a fair chance at them. I also do not think Archery guy's need a month long season. I have hunted archery half dozen times myself. Muzzle loaded 3 times. First hunts with a bow I had no sights, just instinctive, even though it was a compound bow. Muzzle loader was T/C hawken. As of now, I am sure the archery guy's would squawk If they had 2 weeks. But, it seems we have all given up or gave up something at some point if you have lived here long enough. Balance and fairness is what is needed, with the animals in mind as well.

I do not use any Paragraphs!!! LOL.....

SoCoKHntr's picture
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A few points from my perspective

To me it looks like a few different issues going on in this thread. And, regarding elk I don't think we as hunters overall have given up very many hunting privileges or had to sacrifice anything. In fact quite the opposite we have far more elk and hunting opportunities then we had 20 or 30 years ago. In regard to "primitive" hunting I'm with Colomeathunter one hundred percent, if you want to enjoy the satisfaction of doing it the Jeremiah Johnson or Haiawatha (sp?) way. There is enough public land and mountains in our state where you can get out there and work up a quality hunt doing it your way. In my view doing it with a bow where in 99.9 percent of cases you get one shot on an animal at a given time and for the vast majority of bow hunters that is fifty yards and under with a compound bow. This is definitely primitive as compared to regular rifle season where you can have multipe shots at ranges now commonly exceeding 400 yards. So, while technology may have brought up the capability of bow and muzzleloader hunters it's still pretty darn primitive as compared to someone toting a highly accurate 300 win mag with a loaded magazine. Or, even now someone toting an AR 10 in 308 with a ten round mag. As far as season length goes and the harrasment of game thru the seasons, I think archery for the obvious reasons gives the least amount of pressure to game can't even compare it to a regular rifle season where high volumes of lead from all angles is being thrown at them. For that reason and the simple fact that archery still has the lowest success rate due again, to the obvious reasons, that it is quite a bit harder to get within fifty yards of elk and then get the precise boiler room shot needed, the length for archery is fair. And, the fact that in my experience of the last 9 nine years of muzzleloader and bow hunting the rut which really gets rolling during muzzleloader season gives both groups whether 50 and under for bow, 100 and under for roundball, or 150 with an inline, gives each group a fair shot at calling in a bull or cow and getting a shot. Having a muzzleloader in hand when the rut is kicking off hard whether round ball or not when you can shoot 80 to 100 yards is a big advantage and nine days is a long season with that advantage. I think the truth is for either group it's going to come down to effort put in and the hunting skills of the hunter on whether opportunities or had. Another argument can be made that better bullets and powders with inlines has resulted in a higher percentage of kills and less wounded animals. Lastly, I can't help but to think there is more then a little bit of snobbery going on with my way is the only right way and if you're not doing it my way you ain't right. Do it your way and bask in all the satisfaction of your prowess when you down that elk at 60 yards with your round ball or 20 yards with your recurve. I'll be happy for you.

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I really hate it when someone

I really hate it when someone throws out the snobbery card. Traditional hunters just want a season for their way. They sure as hell don't want everybody doing it their/my way.

My style my whole life has been still hunter timber, and taking close shots. It was by choice when I had good eyesight. It's a necessity now with my eyesight and open sights. 50yds it my max range. Well within bow range. I saw Waddell kill a bull elk at 80 yds on his program. I've heard of others doing the some with bow gear. They don't need a month, but they cry the loudest, and get it.

The majority of elk shot are under 100yds for any season.

Success rates in my units that I hunt for the last 5 years are 18% for archery, and 17% for muzzy season.

SoCoKHntr's picture
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Well

Still Hunter wrote:
I really hate it when someone throws out the snobbery card. Traditional hunters just want a season for their way. They sure as hell don't want everybody doing it their/my way. My style my whole life has been still hunter timber, and taking close shots. It was by choice when I had good eyesight. It's a necessity now with my eyesight and open sights. 50yds it my max range. Well within bow range. I saw Waddell kill a bull elk at 80 yds on his program. I've heard of others doing the some with bow gear. They don't need a month, but they cry the loudest, and get it. The majority of elk shot are under 100yds for any season. Success rates in my units that I hunt for the last 5 years are 18% for archery, and 17% for muzzy season.

Sometimes, I hate to have to call it like I see it, but at times one has to call it like they see it. And, I've never cried about any seasons length, I've just worked with what was available whether rifle, muzzle, or bow.

Good hunting to you.

COMeatHunter's picture
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At least it wasn't the race

At least it wasn't the race card.

Thanks for the discussion. I can't say I agree completely with your position but can certainly respect it.

I've had trouble with the big paragraph too.  When you preview check the editor window below.  Your post will be all jacked up and you'll need to put your spacing back in before saving the post to the forum.

SoCoKHntr's picture
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Forgive

COMeatHunter wrote:

At least it wasn't the race card.

Thanks for the discussion. I can't say I agree completely with your position but can certainly respect it.

I've had trouble with the big paragraph too.  When you preview check the editor window below.  Your post will be all jacked up and you'll need to put your spacing back in before saving the post to the forum.

me in advance if I'm wrong, but are you insinuating I'd be the type of person who would throw out something along the lines of the race card?

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