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SoCoKHntr's picture
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Location: Pueblo Colorado
Joined: 12/18/2006
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rather_be_huntin wrote:
Romey wrote:
Guide means just that Guide, Outfitter outfits the hunt, its quite simple really

Sorry I'm not following your point?

Oh, I think he's referring to me and my question. He did make it clear to this simpleton.

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Location: Montana
Joined: 10/24/2006
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I dont take your inexperience as being a simpleton, i apologize to you if thats how you took it.
A more in-depth explanation would be guides are sometimes licensed depending on the state but not the business end of the deal as a outfitter would be.
Yes some ranches also guide on the side but to say a ranch hand takes you out on a easy walk and not hunt is some what lacking in knowledge. Could it happen, sure but if a herd of elk or whatever it might be it on private land or public makes very little difference in how wild the animal is or easy the hunt is. A fence doesnt mean much or deed to land to the elk, for example. Its a very very different thing then a canned hunt on ranch RAISED elk, deer or whatever it might be.

As for in and out state hunters, plenty of instate hunters, even in colorado hire outfitters, some for better quality of game (its our job, we do tend to know where animals are there habits, breeding,rutting range ,traveling routes) things 99.9% of instate hunters dont know or have time to know.Maybe the experience of a high country horse packed hunt, or hard hitting backpack hunt or maybe just to hunt with a professional hunter appeals to them or being able to get into country they couldnt normally.
I can say most hunters i know come away from most outfitted hunts being far better hunters then those that dont. And it doesnt take myself or other guides to see it when we are introduced to a new client. I dont think for instance that hunters taking trophies on a guided hunt succeed but because they are guided but because more often then not, they are better hunters, not always but most often.
I hope this helps

SoCoKHntr's picture
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Location: Pueblo Colorado
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Just kidding a bit, (simpleton) but a good clarification from you none the less.

Thanks!

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The problem with trying to make an argument within the "Spider Bull" framework is that there are so many issues, money, greed, guide practice and techniques, B&C arguments, ethics, egos, emotions, etc...you have guys talking about several issues at once and it just gets all mixed and confused. For me, the team hunting by outfitters is the only issue here. It is the root of the problem. If team hunting was controlled, guiding as we have seen it in the past would not be a problem. The madness on the Monroe mountain was because we had more guides and bounty hunters than we did permitted hunters. The whole idea of a LE was to provide the opportunity for a quality hunt without the mobs and the chance at a really nice trophy animal. Clearly, huge camps of "guides" scouring the hills detracts from this mission statement. The outfitters will not voluntarily stop this practice, it works and it affords the outfitters the opportunity to sell larger and larger "packages" at larger and larger profits. It is called growth and it is one of the cornerstones of business. As we see the outfitter business become more corporate and less “ma and pa” you will see more aggressive business practices applied to this business. Regulatory law is the only answer.

SoCoKHntr's picture
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Location: Pueblo Colorado
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mydeerwife wrote:
The problem with trying to make an argument within the "Spider Bull" framework is that there are so many issues, money, greed, guide practice and techniques, B&C arguments, ethics, egos, emotions, etc...you have guys talking about several issues at once and it just gets all mixed and confused. For me, the team hunting by outfitters is the only issue here. It is the root of the problem. If team hunting was controlled, guiding as we have seen it in the past would not be a problem. The madness on the Monroe mountain was because we had more guides and bounty hunters than we did permitted hunters. The whole idea of a LE was to provide the opportunity for a quality hunt without the mobs and the chance at a really nice trophy animal. Clearly, huge camps of "guides" scouring the hills detracts from this mission statement. The outfitters will not voluntarily stop this practice, it works and it affords the outfitters the opportunity to sell larger and larger "packages" at larger and larger profits. It is called growth and it is one of the cornerstones of business. As we see the outfitter business become more corporate and less “ma and pa” you will see more aggressive business practices applied to this business. Regulatory law is the only answer.

You clarified my fear of it very well. I agree.

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Location: Montana
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So how would it be POSSIBLE to regulate one guide coming off the mountain passing another saying " i just passed a 7x7 up on the bench"

It isnt possible. Look, more regulation is not what this country needs, ethics taught, preserved and instisted on and if you dont like how one outfitter works, boycott him and tell your buddies and hopefully they have the ethics to do the same. It wouldnt be first time or last a outfitter went under becuase of poor ethics.
What was done with spidey IS legal. Its easy to sit on a forum with third to 5th hand knowledge and complain but has anyone called Boon and Crockett and inquired to thier actual findings? I said it else where and will again B&C is the keeper of all fair chase records and they have strict guidlines, the hunt was investigated, all involved were interviewd,it was ruled a fair chase ethical hunt.
I bet that how this has been reported (by those not there in media)and what actually happened arent the same but thats just a guess.

Let me ask this, how many people have sat in a cafe, or called land owners or or other hunters to ask about what they have seen, yes its not the same but its on the same lines

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Romey wrote:
So how would it be POSSIBLE to regulate one guide coming off the mountain passing another saying " i just passed a 7x7 up on the bench"

It isnt possible. Look, more regulation is not what this country needs, ethics taught, preserved and instisted on and if you dont like how one outfitter works, boycott him and tell your buddies and hopefully they have the ethics to do the same. It wouldnt be first time or last a outfitter went under becuase of poor ethics.
What was done with spidey IS legal. Its easy to sit on a forum with third to 5th hand knowledge and complain but has anyone called Boon and Crockett and inquired to thier actual findings? I said it else where and will again B&C is the keeper of all fair chase records and they have strict guidlines, the hunt was investigated, all involved were interviewd,it was ruled a fair chase ethical hunt.
I bet that how this has been reported (by those not there in media)and what actually happened arent the same but thats just a guess.

Let me ask this, how many people have sat in a cafe, or called land owners or or other hunters to ask about what they have seen, yes its not the same but its on the same lines

I live in a very small northern town, home-base to 6 Guide-Outfitter busines's.
Unfortunately none have ever gone out of business for poor ethics.....on the contrary they would only go out of business if they stopped Producing trophies as quickly and easily as possable. As long as some hunters can record their trophies is someones book, they don't care if the animal is behind a fence or if the outfitter does all his hunting from spotter planes and radios. There are more than enough of these guys around to keep lots of unethical outfitters in business.
Unfortunately the change from Mom and Pop Outfitting has produced only growth based businesses. Even the Provincial Guild-Outfitter Associsation seem willing to keep even Businesses convicted of poaching as memebers in good standing.
Much of todays profesional Hunters are like the current Profesional Wall Street crowd.
Greed is destroying all. I find this all very sad.

Location: Utah
Joined: 02/24/2003
Posts: 596
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mydeerwife wrote:
The problem with trying to make an argument within the "Spider Bull" framework is that there are so many issues, money, greed, guide practice and techniques, B&C arguments, ethics, egos, emotions, etc...you have guys talking about several issues at once and it just gets all mixed and confused. For me, the team hunting by outfitters is the only issue here. It is the root of the problem. If team hunting was controlled, guiding as we have seen it in the past would not be a problem. The madness on the Monroe mountain was because we had more guides and bounty hunters than we did permitted hunters. The whole idea of a LE was to provide the opportunity for a quality hunt without the mobs and the chance at a really nice trophy animal. Clearly, huge camps of "guides" scouring the hills detracts from this mission statement. The outfitters will not voluntarily stop this practice, it works and it affords the outfitters the opportunity to sell larger and larger "packages" at larger and larger profits. It is called growth and it is one of the cornerstones of business. As we see the outfitter business become more corporate and less “ma and pa” you will see more aggressive business practices applied to this business. Regulatory law is the only answer.

I understand exactly what your concern is and that is team hunting. I get what you're saying. What I'm trying to say back to you is how do you really control it? What laws can you really put in place?

As I said in a previous post all an outfitter has to do is asign one guide to the hunter. The other 20 guys are "scouts" preparing for the upcoming rifle hunt and as the pevious poster pointed pass along info back at camp or passing each other on the mountain.

It's public land so you can't use the argument that they have too many people on the mountian but I get your point, it's about all those guys chasing one animal. I just don't see how you can stop it. Sure you can put laws there so they won't do it so obviously and out in the open they'll just be more sneaky about and it you'll never be able to enforce something like that.

Like I said in my previous post the only real way to stop this situation in my mind is regulate what these guys can charge for a hunt. Then you take away their incentive to send out 50 guys and you don't have to worry about policing the situation. Give the guides and outfitters room to be in the free market and compete price wise but limit it enough that financially outfitters can't afford to throw too many guys in the field for one hunt.

Location: Utah
Joined: 02/24/2003
Posts: 596
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Romey wrote:
So how would it be POSSIBLE to regulate one guide coming off the mountain passing another saying " i just passed a 7x7 up on the bench"

It isnt possible. Look, more regulation is not what this country needs, ethics taught, preserved and instisted on and if you dont like how one outfitter works, boycott him and tell your buddies and hopefully they have the ethics to do the same. It wouldnt be first time or last a outfitter went under becuase of poor ethics.
What was done with spidey IS legal. Its easy to sit on a forum with third to 5th hand knowledge and complain but has anyone called Boon and Crockett and inquired to thier actual findings? I said it else where and will again B&C is the keeper of all fair chase records and they have strict guidlines, the hunt was investigated, all involved were interviewd,it was ruled a fair chase ethical hunt.
I bet that how this has been reported (by those not there in media)and what actually happened arent the same but thats just a guess.

Let me ask this, how many people have sat in a cafe, or called land owners or or other hunters to ask about what they have seen, yes its not the same but its on the same lines

Your absolutely right that the Spider bull was taken legally and I don't think anyone can argue that at this point. I think what mydeerwife is concerned about is so many people chasing the same bull with only one gun in the camp. I think the concern is the disruption to the sanctity of what a hunt should be under normal circumstances compared to what that unit turned into last year.

While I understand the concern I just don't see how you can really stop it and to your point I don't think more laws are the answer.

As another member suggested if you say an outfitter can only send one guide per hunter in the field then why should the rest of us be allowed more than one non-tag holding campanion in the field with us?

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rather_be_huntin wrote:
...While I understand the concern I just don't see how you can really stop it and to your point I don't think more laws are the answer.

Of course laws are never the absolute answer. There will always be criminals out there willing to take the chance and break the law. This can be said about virtually every law on the books. You curtainly aren't suggesting we abandon all laws because a few people break them are you? Most people, and I promise you most business, follow and respect the law. Outfitters are no different. These are for the most part honest , hard working people and they will follow the laws just as you and I do. As to MORE laws...Utah, like most states has absolutely NO laws governing outfitters or guides. They are not even required to have a license.

As another member suggested if you say an outfitter can only send one guide per hunter in the field then why should the rest of us be allowed more than one non-tag holding companion in the field with us?

Really now, you and a few of your part time hunter friends and family members are simply not the same as a well organized, well trained, group of professional hunters like those being fielded today by some outfitters around the country.. BUT, if huge teams or "friends and family" ever do become a problem in the hunting fields, then yes, this issue should also be addressed.

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