42 replies [Last post]
Location: Utah
Joined: 02/24/2003
Posts: 596
more spidey stuff just out

Hey take it easy....I'm just having a conversation here and trying to be logical and take emotion out of this. No reason to get worked up over it.

I can understand your argument I really can. What I'm asking is where is the line? If you're asking me for my answer I don't have one and that's the my whole point. You can't draw a line.....that's what I'm trying to say.

What I was trying to get across is it ok to have 50 people with me as long as they aren't "professional hunters"?

Do you think guiding services are wrong under "normal" circumstances? Is 1 professional hunter too much? 5? 9? 10? Where do you draw the line legally? That's the whole point. I wouldn't want to be a part of a hunt like that but how do you go to the state and ask them regulate this? What is your solution?

What doesn't make sense is in one breath you talk about a bunch of people blocking roads, limiting access etc but in another you say the problem is they are professional hunters. 50 non-professional hunters can block roads and limit access as easy as pro's. I'm just trying to understand what you're argument is. If a guide has a license to operate within a particular National Forest or what ever do you tell him you can't have more than 3 guides within a mile? I just don't know how you police a situation like that.

It's easy to yell and scream about how wrong it is but if you think it's wrong then purpose a solution and articulate your argument to the point the it will be generally accepted. Your human nature is working against you and your emotions are getting the best of you and you are coming across as angry and a bit irrational.

Offline
Joined: 01/18/2009
Posts: 8
more spidey stuff just out

OK, this is a few things I might consider:

Team or group guiding will be prohibited. Team/group guiding simply defined as more than one guide in the field with a hunter at any given time.
While in the hire of a permitted hunter no outfitter shall provide more than one guide per hunter and this guide, hence forth none as the "guide", must be within unaided voice communication distance from the hunter while in the field hunting. Any number of non-guides provided by the outfitters may be involved in the care, pampering, safety, and other non-hunting outfitting services as traditional outfitting dictates. No non-guide, provided by the outfitter, shall provide any direct hunting aid or assistance,i.e. spotting, radio directing, etc, while the permitted hunter is in active pursuit of his permitted animal.

Issues like film crews, outfitters "taking over an area" to protect a client's hunt, "bounty hunters", these issues need also be addressed...got any ideas?

Offline
Location: Montana
Joined: 10/24/2006
Posts: 449
more spidey stuff just out

No matter any ones opinion, mine is split because i am a guide and a dedicated trophy hunter myself, B&C investigated as they do and ruled it a legal fair chase hunt, nothing they do lightly and darn sure not for top elk as they are the official record keepers of FAIR CHASE hunting, it is what it is.
I can promise they are far more dedicated to fair chase ethics them most people.

How i personally feel is that AUCTIONED governor tags are going to be very bad for the average hunter and very good for those with cash to spend. Youll see more of this in the future and only way to change it is to get it changed to draw tags as it should be and during rifle season only . Contact your reps, contact your Game and parks services as well as governors office.

Offline
Joined: 01/15/2007
Posts: 30
more spidey stuff just out
Romey wrote:
No matter any ones opinion, mine is split because i am a guide and a dedicated trophy hunter myself, B&C investigated as they do and ruled it a legal fair chase hunt, nothing they do lightly and darn sure not for top elk as they are the official record keepers of FAIR CHASE hunting, it is what it is.
I can promise they are far more dedicated to fair chase ethics them most people.

How i personally feel is that AUCTIONED governor tags are going to be very bad for the average hunter and very good for those with cash to spend. Youll see more of this in the future and only way to change it is to get it changed to draw tags as it should be and during rifle season only . Contact your reps, contact your Game and parks services as well as governors office.

I aggree That Boone and Crocket is/was the last bastion of fair chase but I think they had to hold their noses on this one because nothing "illegal" was done. Both the goveners tag, team hunting (with all the eltronic gear available these days) and the advantage in being able to use a high power rifle while everyone else has to use a primitave weapon demeaned all hunters. Without the goveners tag in your pocket the Warden would have conviscated the animal.

Location: Utah
Joined: 02/24/2003
Posts: 596
more spidey stuff just out
mydeerwife wrote:
OK, this is a few things I might consider:

Team or group guiding will be prohibited. Team/group guiding simply defined as more than one guide in the field with a hunter at any given time.
While in the hire of a permitted hunter no outfitter shall provide more than one guide per hunter and this guide, hence forth none as the "guide", must be within unaided voice communication distance from the hunter while in the field hunting. Any number of non-guides provided by the outfitters may be involved in the care, pampering, safety, and other non-hunting outfitting services as traditional outfitting dictates. No non-guide, provided by the outfitter, shall provide any direct hunting aid or assistance,i.e. spotting, radio directing, etc, while the permitted hunter is in active pursuit of his permitted animal.

Issues like film crews, outfitters "taking over an area" to protect a client's hunt, "bounty hunters", these issues need also be addressed...got any ideas?

In my mind I've gone down the very road you are headed and I think in concept it's good. I like the traditions of hunting and it's roots and heritage. I want to see hunting stay as pure as it can be. The one thing I really don't want to see is it become a rich man's tradition.

When I went down the road you're headed I thought of a few things though that I can't get around.

If I'm an outfitter a big part of my business is built on scouting. When you pay an outfitter for a trophy animal on public ground you are paying for hours of spotting and scouting long before you go to the hunt. I think it would be tough to legelly tell outfitters they can't scout prior to a hunt.

So let's say your suggestion becomes law. If I'm Doyle Moss I assign one guide to the hunter going after Spidey. I then send 20 other guys in the hills far enough from my hunter so that they can't be considered guides to "scout" for the upcoming rifle season. If one of my scouts happens to see the Spider bull they can come back to camp and mention it that night when my hunter isn't hunting. The next morning Spider bull hunter knows right where to go. In concept your law wasn't broken but really you know in your heart what they're doing.

To take this a step further yes we can start making more and more laws to clamp down even further on outfitters so that your law has more meat to it and your intentions are met. But if you go too far we have to asked ourselves some serious questions.

1 - Are we willing to drive our outfitters out of business?
2 - What are we really trying to accomplish with these rules on outfitters?

I think they're fair questions to ask and we have to ask ourselves are we really just in making our outfitters obey these rules and concepts but we aren't really willing to obey them ourselves since most of us won't limit ourselves to one person helping us nor would we want to turn our hunts into that.

So I guess at this point it's my turn to throw in a suggestion. The first thing you have to do is get rid of the governors tag but that will come at a price. The rest of us will have to pay a little more on our tags. Nothing good is gained without sacrifices. So be prepared but the extra amount should be neglegiable.

Second thing you do is instead of regulate the crap out of outfitters is take away their incentive to want to do this and to do that you cut off the money. You can make each outfitter turn in a pricing schedule each year and while guiding on public land they must adhere to that price for all hunters for any given species. For example if a guided imited entry elk hunt for 2008 for 5 days is $6000 (or whatever the numbers are and the schedule is subject to scrutiny before approval) then even the hunter going after Spidey pays that amount and Mossback can accept no more legally. The outfitter has much less incentive to send 50 guys in the field looking for a bull when he's going to lose his shorts on the deal.

You aren't going to fix everything that way but it seems the most fair way to at least slow it down in my mind. Rich men will still kill trophy and record book animals but you can't ever make is so a rich man can't hunt and take record book animals. You can only make it so that money isn't the sole factor by limiting what can be spent on a hunt.

In concept the outfitter stays profitable a makes his dollar. The outfitter would still benefit from taking Spidey because it will boost his reputation and bring in more clients.

Location: Utah
Joined: 02/24/2003
Posts: 596
more spidey stuff just out
tangozulu wrote:

I aggree That Boone and Crocket is/was the last bastion of fair chase but I think they had to hold their noses on this one because nothing "illegal" was done. Both the goveners tag, team hunting (with all the eltronic gear available these days) and the advantage in being able to use a high power rifle while everyone else has to use a primitave weapon demeaned all hunters. Without the goveners tag in your pocket the Warden would have conviscated the animal.

While I somewhat agree with you guys I certainly don't feel as strongly as most of you do about this subject.

I have to ask this question. The governors tag has been a Utah thing for quite a while and generates a lot of money for our state. I've never really been a fan of the tag but understand it generates money and keeps prices a little lower for the rest of us.

Why is it now that the record bull has been taken all of a sudden there are so many people coming out of the woodwork that have a problem with this tag?

SoCoKHntr's picture
Offline
Location: Pueblo Colorado
Joined: 12/18/2006
Posts: 1789
more spidey stuff just out

Here's another point pertinent to the discussion when it comes to outfitters. I've never used and probably won't but that is due to living in a Western State and being able to take advantage of where I live. I can certainly understand the need for an outfitter for an out of State hunter who isn't familiar with the land or style of hunting. Paying for that knowledge and skill on what might be a once in a lifetime opportunity is completely understandable. Provided it isn't twenty guides with the coms and intel capabilities of a Ranger platoon. One or two guides, doing just that, guiding a hunter, but not doing the work for him.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but there are basically two types of outfitters, guides with licenses and permits to guide hunters on public land. And, big ranch outfits where thousands of acres of land in prime habitat are owned. The primary business might be farming or ranching, but during big game season the shift for many ranch hands turns to guiding.

To illustrate on another hunt TV show I watched for a ranch in NM their main point of advertising was being that their ranch hands worked on the land year round they knew the exact routes of the elk at all times of year and this eliminated the need for their clients to locate (hunt for) the animals.

My feeling is if you are with an outfitter taking you into a public land area and using his services to 'guide' you in the steep and deep for the reasons I mentioned above (unfamiliarity) that's still hunting. If you drop $5,000 to have a ranch hand take you on an easy walk to a pasture full of calm elk then you may have gotten your big rack to hang on the wall, but you're really not familiar with hunting. Kinda like the 'team' we've been talking about.

Offline
Joined: 01/18/2009
Posts: 8
more spidey stuff just out

I don't know, maybe it isn't a problem, and maybe we won't normally see this level of team hunting until that time when the next "Spider Bull" comes along. But, Doyle and the boys have set a new standard for team hunting and I am sure other outfitters will begin using these technics in their pursuit of profits. There is no reason to think that the use of team hunting will not expand until that time when it gets all out of hand and the general public demands action. At best, at this stage, we can only plant a seed of thought. OK, I am out and starting to gear up for turkeys, my work here is done.

Offline
Location: Montana
Joined: 10/24/2006
Posts: 449
more spidey stuff just out

Guide means just that Guide, Outfitter outfits the hunt, its quite simple really

Location: Utah
Joined: 02/24/2003
Posts: 596
more spidey stuff just out
Romey wrote:
Guide means just that Guide, Outfitter outfits the hunt, its quite simple really

Sorry I'm not following your point?

Related Forum Threads You Might Like

ThreadThread StarterRepliesLast Updated
Neurotoxins ?!?bnow0707809/07/2004 09:11 am
Digital Camo, Yes or no?716pro809/06/2006 09:31 am
Monster Raxx Mineral Supplement!!!!!ManOfTheFall408/02/2013 19:19 pm
Does anybody know about this stuff?Blackie109/09/2006 12:32 pm
hunting stuffPaRu1110/29/2006 19:37 pm