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Location: Utah
Joined: 02/24/2003
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I can see your point but there is definitely a grey area here.

Not many people realize this but the hunter that eventually got the spider bull had a shot at the bull two days earlier and missed at 190 yds. They couldn't find the bull for two days and were out hunting him. The Mossback team hunted him hard for a month during archery season and could not find him for 4 weeks with their archery hunters before the eventual rifle hunter got him.

This was a hunting situation nonetheless and he could've easily gone home empty handed.

SoCoKHntr's picture
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Location: Pueblo Colorado
Joined: 12/18/2006
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I can also see your point as well. For me it's just tough to watch Hunting descend into a pure business like commodity relegated to the very wealthy. I watch hunting shows because I love seeing animals, elk and deer, in the mountains even when I can't be there myself. But, if you pay attention a majority of these shows serve as commercials for outfits that cater to people that can afford to pay thousands of dollars in tag fees not to mention travel and other expenses.

I've seen shows where they are hunting in Colorado during the rut with rifles, not muzzleloaders or bow, not wearing blaze orange picking and choosing over huge bulls. This was Colorado where no rifle hunting is allowed during the rut and you have to wear blaze orange even with a muzzleloader. Obviously this had to be a private ranch where Colo's rules and regs didn't apply. I looked up the price for the ranch that was advertised and it's $5,900 for a 'trophy class' bull. 3,900 for a 'conservation bull', I guess that's like a 'management buck' they talk about on the Southern ranches. Their add says 'Trophy Bull Elk with a Guaranteed Kill,". That's like going to the zoo and killing in my view.

Another show I watched last night had a guy hunting in MT on a ranch, at least they had to abide by the rules they were in blaze orange, picking and choosing over bulls and bucks in the ranches pastures. Heck, you could see a major roadway in the distance and in the end easily getting his kills. Again, deep pockets pay for easy hunts and kills.

On the way to my hunting area you drive thru lower private pasture lands that area always filled with high amounts of very nice mature bucks right on the side of the road. We drive up about another 3 to 4,000 ft in elevation to camp and hike about another 2,000 to hunt. We don't see as many deer or bucks up there as in the pastures but some very dandy ones do reside up there. I hunted hard covering miles for three days trying to get close to two big bucks I spotted on a ridge the first day. My work paid off and on the fourth day I was able to kill a 26 inch three point. No trophy by the usual standards, but more of an accomplishment for me then if I paid a rancher 2,000 to kill a deer I could have walked up on opening morning in an alfalfa field.

Getting back to TV shows, I watched an episode of Eastmen's last night that showed a Trophy Mule Deer Bow hunter hitting the high public land of Colorado. Just him and the camera man filming him living out of a pack tent for the season. Ended up kill a beauty near the end of his season after some blown stalks. Now that man has my admiration for what it's worth.

I'll always root for the blue collar or rich guy toughing it out in the trenches over someone paying for the easy kill.

Location: Utah
Joined: 02/24/2003
Posts: 591
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I like where you're going with this because it brings up a real good question.....

If the bull was hunted on public ground and there was NOTHING done by the Mossback crew that was illegal then you can say all the other guys that drew an archery tag and a rifle tag had the same opportunity at this bull. Guys that paid a mere $280 for thier tag, had no guides, and spent the summer watching this bull like everyone else had a relatively equal shot at the bull. If you look at it from that perspective it makes the bull seem less prostitutionalized and more like the guy with the money maybe had better odds because there were more eyes on his side but was no means guaranteed this bull. The regular Joe had a real shot and we could easily be talking about Joe Hunter and his new world record.

But where my question is this.....was everything really legit? Did a Mossback guide find him on Private Property somewhere and "herd" the bull to legal ground? If that occured then I agree 100% with what you're saying.

But as is stands any guy that drew a tag for that unit last year had a legimate shot at this bull. That means you didn't have to be rich to kill the world record bull, it just so happened that the guy that got him paid a ton of cash to be there.

Location: Utah
Joined: 02/24/2003
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To add to this.....the story that I heard was is that it wasn't even the Mossback guys that found him the last time. It was a regular Joe that video'd the bull and ran over to the Mossback camp to rat the bull out and had video to prove it and probably recieving a check for his troubles

Mossback pays for information on Trophy animals as a regular practice. If you have video and GPS coordinates they pay more. The bigger the animal, the bigger the pay day. Around here you see signs on telephone poles that say "Get paid to hunt and fish." That's the Mossback guys paying for your information.

So the above story isn't hard to believe.

SoCoKHntr's picture
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Location: Pueblo Colorado
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Yes, the level of 'monitoring' is a big factor. Then again why pay a lot of dinero if it's just nominal support. In the end I'll just say it's not for me even if I had the cash. If I was wealthy enough to pay for that I'd just invest in good equipment and stay up there hunting without the team.

Location: Utah
Joined: 02/24/2003
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I hear you....it's not for me either.

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I guess my point is not to condemn the bull..he is magnificent, it isn't the fact that some rich guy got him, plenty of rich guys out there hunting...what bothers me and I believe needs to be stopped is the practice of team hunting! In this case and in all high dollar "team" hunts, a group of professional hunters go out and scourer a mountain, can be scouting miles and miles from the actual permittee, in reality, you don't have one hunter, you have multiple hunters...how is that fair for other hunters in the area? What does that really do to the idea of "fair chase"? And then you add to this group of professional hunters a group of "bounty hunters" out to make a quick buck off information they sell to the guide...I'd say this whole system and practice stinks to high heaven and needs to be stopped!!!
Oh, look on page 55 of the 2008 Utah Big Game Guide book Hunt #397, 09/24-10/02...it was a muzzleloader only hunt!(that ain't a big deal anyway)

Location: Utah
Joined: 02/24/2003
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mydeerwife wrote:
Hunt #397, 09/24-10/02...it was a muzzleloader only hunt!(that ain't a big deal anyway)

I did forgot to mention one MAJOR detail....the guy had the governors tag and so for HIM it was an "any legal weapon" hunt and in essence a rifle hunt for him.

Location: Utah
Joined: 02/24/2003
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mydeerwife wrote:
I guess my point is not to condemn the bull..he is magnificent, it isn't the fact that some rich guy got him, plenty of rich guys out there hunting...what bothers me and I believe needs to be stopped is the practice of team hunting! In this case and in all high dollar "team" hunts, a group of professional hunters go out and scourer a mountain, can be scouting miles and miles from the actual permittee, in reality, you don't have one hunter, you have multiple hunters...how is that fair for other hunters in the area? What does that really do to the idea of "fair chase"? And then you add to this group of professional hunters a group of "bounty hunters" out to make a quick buck off information they sell to the guide...I'd say this whole system and practice stinks to high heaven and needs to be stopped!!!

I do see your point and is not my particular brand of Vodka either but you have to remember something.......

Having the governers tag he paid in the neighborhood of $70,000 JUST FOR THE TAG!!!!!! That is not one cent going to Mossback yet. That all went to the state of Utah to OUR wildlife managment funds. If you paid 70k for a tag you'd hire 20 guides too I'm sure.

He put the same amount of money in our funds as 250 limited entry hunters and only one animal got harvested.

It's all a matter of your point of view. His tag helps keep our prices down so it's NOT just a rich man's sport.

The hunting party issue....where do you draw the line on that? If myself and two guys go out is that too big of a hunting party? If you don't have a weapon you can't be on the hill? Where's the line?

I think its human nature to feel that if I should have to draw a tag once every 15 years and once I draw I have to hike 10 miles a day with my brother and overweight cousin then everybody should have to do the same. Money shouldn't ever matter because we will all never be on a level playing field. I get that I really do but this is a one off situation....that being the governors tag. It pumps a buch of money into our funds and everyone benefits from it including you and me.

I say I'm not real fond of the way it was done but I do understand it and can live with it as long as it doesn't get out of hand. The majority of the premium tags are still available to the avergae joe.

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rather_be_huntin wrote:

He put the same amount of money in our funds as 250 limited entry hunters and only one animal got harvested. yes, and I don't have a problem with this..money is not the issue here for me

The hunting party issue....where do you draw the line on that? If myself and two guys go out is that too big of a hunting party? If you don't have a weapon you can't be on the hill? Where's the line? first off, comparing you and two or three of your buddies out driving around looking for a nice elk to harvest is simply NOT THE SAME AS A GROUP OF HIGHLY TRAINED PROFESSIONAL HUNTERS PURSUING ONE ANIMAL AND THEN CALLING IN THE SHOOTER FOR THE KILL...STOP BEING SO NIEVE. That's the dumbest argument yet.

as to where to draw the line, let me throw that right back at you...is 20 guides to many...no...how about 200...how about 500, 500 guides searching the hills, blocking roads, limiting access for other hunters, herding, prodding, spotting, bull sitting...yeah, were do you draw the line...that is exactly what I am asking...you say don't draw a line...I am saying bull crap(no pun intended), draw a line..stop team guiding!

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