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McCain said to choose Alaska gov as running mate
civetcat wrote:
I'd suggest other subjects be redirected to a new thread. They are very easy to start.

Jtapia I'd suggest you do a little looking, paticularly in this millenium. The clinics who perform 3d trimester abortions in the US are in Witchita KS and Boulder CO. You have an interest in the subject, I don't. My daughter is ten years away from the slightest possiblity of being pregnant and I have zero chance of having more children. Beat yourself up over what is a personal matter but please leave me out. Perhaps you could start an abortion thread, or an abstinence only thread.

Before you place me 3 or 4 rungs down below you on the intelligence ladder let me state that I know how to start another thread but since you responded in THIS one with inaccurate information I followed with accurate information in this thread in RESPONSE.
Neither site I posted a link to showed anything about a 3rd trimester abortion much less in Wichita KS or Boulder CO or anywhere else for that matter. It was strictly 3 to 6 months abortions of often times perfectly healthy babies.
Thank you for your family specifics but really, you should not have, I have no interest in your family, their beliefs or whether or not you have any chance to have anymore children. I actually agree with you that it is a personal decision between parents and children about such matters. I also have no dog in this fight other than my beliefs that abortion is wrong in most cases.
My response to your post dealt with inaccurate information. I didn't drag you into this but rather it was you who injected yourself into the discussion by posting the afore mentioned false information.
Perhaps you could start a "inaccurate information about partial birth abortion" thread. I hear it's really easy to do. neener!

One more observation, looking at expats post directly above civetcats' response to my post it appears that civetcat followed expats chain of reaction when caught doing something stupid, to a Tee. Laugh

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McCain said to choose Alaska gov as running mate
SoCoKHntr wrote:
I realize your hatred of the poor leads you to believe their only goal in life is to get pregnant as many times as possible to upgrade their housing in the projects (what a wonderful upgrade go to three bedroom rat and roach infested apt. from a one bedroom).

But, the reality again is different from your conservative mentality that they all want nothing more then to steal your precious money.

As with most everything in life the real situation is far more complicated filled with good and bad and negatives and positives.

Let me ask you Jtapia are you a religious man? Do you believe in the teachings of Jesus in the Bible? Do you think that man would be against helping the poor and underprivileged?

I very much understand the concept of not wanting to 'GIVE' money to people who don't deserve it, but what about the children who made no other mistake then to be born into poverty and have ignorant parents that don't know how to raise a child or provide for it. I will tell you it's ok for me for some of my tax dollars going to pay for a program that feeds children at school or feeds the elderly or provides them health care they don't have access to otherwise for education.

I'm not for unregulated handouts to no accounts, but I'm not a greedy SOB either when it comes to helping my fellow man. I see more goodness and value there then my money going into a sinkhole while helping to fatten the bank accounts of the top dogs of Halliburton, Blackwater, KBR, and others.

But, I guess it is apparent what your priorities are.

As civetcat said this has gone off topic and I won't post on this topic welfare/abortion in this thread any longer.

Boy you are full of lies and twisted statements...lets count the lies.
1-"your hatred of the poor" I never said I hate the poor
2-"you to believe their only goal in life is to get pregnant as many times as possible" I never said anything like that, just stated how the system worked.
3-"they all want nothing more then to steal your precious money." I never said anything remotely similar to that.
4- "But, I guess it is apparent what your priorities are" Apparently not so apparent to you as you can't even say what they are but rather make up crap.

I am religious and I give to MY charities. There are several stories told by Jesus about the rewards of helping yourself and the reaping of the lazy. He would certainly help the poor and bless those trying to do for themselves. There is a HUGE difference between me GIVING my money and the Government TAKING my money.
I agree with you that some of my tax money be spent feeding the children, providing for the elderly, heck even helping single parents get educated and finding a job, but that can't be confused with the Government taking my money and giving it away to someone who refuses to do anything to better themselves.
From a religious stand point, let me give my money and help where I want to and not have the Government decide for me as it will be myself that stands before God and answers for my deeds.

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McCain said to choose Alaska gov as running mate
JTapia wrote:
Boy you are full of lies and twisted statements...lets count the lies.
1-"your hatred of the poor" I never said I hate the poor
2-"you to believe their only goal in life is to get pregnant as many times as possible" I never said anything like that, just stated how the system worked.
3-"they all want nothing more then to steal your precious money." I never said anything remotely similar to that.
4- "But, I guess it is apparent what your priorities are" Apparently not so apparent to you as you can't even say what they are but rather make up crap.

I am religious and I give to MY charities. There are several stories told by Jesus about the rewards of helping yourself and the reaping of the lazy. He would certainly help the poor and bless those trying to do for themselves. There is a HUGE difference between me GIVING my money and the Government TAKING my money.
I agree with you that some of my tax money be spent feeding the children, providing for the elderly, heck even helping single parents get educated and finding a job, but that can't be confused with the Government taking my money and giving it away to someone who refuses to do anything to better themselves.
From a religious stand point, let me give my money and help where I want to and not have the Government decide for me as it will be myself that stands before God and answers for my deeds.

But, Jtapia, you fail to see how you might not say something directly but what you imply to be true.

You stated they when they go get there welfare benefits they are given condoms, but don't use them because by not getting pregnant they wouldn't qualify for their welfare benefits. You are implying they are doing something devious to continue to receive money. In your explanation of how the system worked it went back to them using it to deceptively get welfare/money. Maybe 'hate' is a strong word but to me that leads me to believe you don't have a favorable view of them.

Maybe I'm wrong, but from what I have read of your posts my understanding of your view is Dems/Obama want to tax you more (take your money) and use it (give) it to people who don't deserve it (lazy, no accounts who don't want to work). I think most republicans have this view in fact I think their view of Democrats is they want to give your money to lazy poor people, they want to take your guns, they want to burn your bible, and so forth. I have talked to and read many posts from people who believe those very things in varying degrees.

It's simply not true. Taxes are needed for a variety of reasons, I don't like em any more then the next guy, but I do like driving on our highways, hunting our state lands, having emergency services available to my family, schools and education, which the majority of taxes go towards. As stated before I don't mind some of my money helping people less fortunate then me especially children.

I also believe repubs like Bush give tax breaks to the insanely wealthy while middle class people like us pay for it with insane health care costs, insane fuel costs, rising education costs for our children, while our wages stagnate. The cost of living is rising higher and higher and we, me and you pay for it.

I remember reading about the Enron scandal and about how one of the top executives threw a lavish party in Spain for his wife. Flew people there had lavish decorative items just an ungodly splendid affair which cost in the millions to throw. This while the savings and retirements of of their employee's were being squandered. Who did this? Who was at the top? You can bet your bootstraps they were all repubs in fact Ken Lay surprise surprise a good friend of Bush.

Eric Prince the head of Blackwater raking in huge profits from his mercenary outfit in Iraq while the employees are literally hung out to dry. You remember the contractors that were hung off that bridge in Fallujha? Their families are suing blackwater for the negligence in which it treated their family members who died over there. Who did Eric Prince donate millions to? Bush and Cheney that's who, because the longer Iraq goes on the more money he makes.

Your feeling is our tax dollars go to lazy no accounts, I think most of our hard earned money and tax dollars is going to subsidize Corporations that don't really need it.

You say from a religious standpoint let you decide where your money goes and the Gov. has no right to direct that at all. Well if you are willing to forfeit giving them your tax dollars and dispensing of it in a variety of ways are you willing to forgo driving on our roads, having emergency responders help you if needed, have the military protect you?

You guys make it seem like every tax dollar is going straight to the welfare mom on the other side of the tracks and that's simply not true.

If we just abandon the less fortunate and not offer any social programs that help them especially the children to elevate their position in life we will pay for it someday in a big way. But, again, I would rather see some of my tax dollars go to help a less fortunate child then pad the retirement account of an Enron exec.

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McCain said to choose Alaska gov as running mate

What a joke -- trying to tie Enron into this. Ken Lay knew Bush, so therefore Bush is complicit?

Alright!! Since you've opened the door to guilt by association, I assume we can start talking about Jeremiah Wright, William Ayers, Tony Rezko, Michael Pfleger, and Louis Farrakhan.

And why has the military had to rely on contractors like Blackwater? Because they had been cut to the bone and could no longer do it. And it wasn't warhawk Republicans pushing cuts to the military.

Your wages are controlled by your employer, not the government. Health care costs? Thank lawyers for that one -- but we still have the best health care around. Energy costs? Thank the Dems for all those environmental regulations that have led to regional blends, stopped development of new refineries, and prevented development of domestic resources.

And I've said it before -- 86% of income taxes are paid by the top 25%. So cut the garbage about tax cuts to the poor -- you can't cut what ain't being paid.

And by the way -- if you've got evidence of tax dollars being paid to Enron exec retirement accounts, I'd love to see it. Otherwise, tone down the hysterics.

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McCain said to choose Alaska gov as running mate
SoCoKHntr wrote:
It's simply not true. Taxes are needed for a variety of reasons, I don't like em any more then the next guy, but I do like driving on our highways, hunting our state lands, having emergency services available to my family, schools and education, which the majority of taxes go towards

You guys make it seem like every tax dollar is going straight to the welfare mom on the other side of the tracks and that's simply not true.

I disagree stongly with your point on taxes if thats what a majority of my taxes are going to then why would I have to pay any state taxes. Also look at the federal subsidies for eythenol its about $37 billion over the last five while big oil has only recieved about $35 billion. Meanwhile looking at climate emergency council, they are talking about HB6 which is aimed at taking away federal subsidies to big oil. But, they cant find anyone to sponsor it. If obama was so conserned about it why doesnt he sponsor it. Why, because he knows what fuel prices will go to and he contrary to what he says, is also getting money from big oil.

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McCain said to choose Alaska gov as running mate
SoCoKHntr wrote:

But, Jtapia, you fail to see how you might not say something directly but what you imply to be true.

You stated they when they go get there welfare benefits they are given condoms, but don't use them because by not getting pregnant they wouldn't qualify for their welfare benefits. You are implying they are doing something devious to continue to receive money. In your explanation of how the system worked it went back to them using it to deceptively get welfare/money. Maybe 'hate' is a strong word but to me that leads me to believe you don't have a favorable view of them.

You support corporate WELFARE as long as hardworking middle class people are paying for it

You say from a religious standpoint let you decide where your money goes and the Gov. has no right to direct that at all. Well if you are willing to forfeit giving them your tax dollars and dispensing of it in a variety of ways are you willing to forgo driving on our roads, having emergency responders help you if needed, have the military protect you?

I wasn't trying to "imply " anything but rather just stating how the system works. It is sad but that's the cold, hard truth, just call your local office that is in charge of the social programs that are affiliated with the welfare system and they'll tell you that Yes your benefits are directly proportionate to the number of children you have.
You are correct though, it is the deceitful folks that abuse the system intentionnaly that I view in an unfavorable light, lazy if you will, but I don't hate them at all,. There are others though that are 2nd and 3rd generation welfare recipients that truly know no other way.

I don't have any problem with taxes per se, just the taxes that go to social programs that reward people for doing nothing. I don't believe that I have ever said that I favored tax cuts that hurt the military, roads and emergency workers. What I said was that in order to help my fellow man it should be I who decides which fellow man I want to help and not the Governments; place to take my money by way of increased taxes or cuts to other services such military spending, and give it to whoever steps up and asks for it.

I do not support corporate welfare but I also do not support corporate genocide either. These corporations that you want to up the taxes on are the ones who employ a great number of the middle class folks you mentioned. It would be foolish to believe that the stock-holder in these corporations will take a hit in their pay checks so the solution would be to cut jobs to lower operating cost, forgo future expansion thereby eliminating any future job creations and divest itself of no to low profit divisions thereby cutting even more jobs held by the middle class workers. What I do support is jobs for people who want them.

As for the Enron thing...those people are criminals which I do not support.
What it boils down to is I don't see wealthy people as the bad guys that need to pay more than their fair share. Of course there are the few that are just obnoxious about their wealth but they do create the jobs that most folks have. The welfare folks create no jobs except the bureaucrats that run the system and I believe that Sarah Palin thinks the way I do and that's why I support her nomination as Vice President.

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McCain said to choose Alaska gov as running mate
JTapia wrote:
I wasn't trying to "imply " anything but rather just stating how the system works. It is sad but that's the cold, hard truth, just call your local office that is in charge of the social programs that are affiliated with the welfare system and they'll tell you that Yes your benefits are directly proportionate to the number of children you have.
You are correct though, it is the deceitful folks that abuse the system intentionnaly that I view in an unfavorable light, lazy if you will, but I don't hate them at all,. There are others though that are 2nd and 3rd generation welfare recipients that truly know no other way.

I don't have any problem with taxes per se, just the taxes that go to social programs that reward people for doing nothing. I don't believe that I have ever said that I favored tax cuts that hurt the military, roads and emergency workers. What I said was that in order to help my fellow man it should be I who decides which fellow man I want to help and not the Governments; place to take my money by way of increased taxes or cuts to other services such military spending, and give it to whoever steps up and asks for it.

I do not support corporate welfare but I also do not support corporate genocide either. These corporations that you want to up the taxes on are the ones who employ a great number of the middle class folks you mentioned. It would be foolish to believe that the stock-holder in these corporations will take a hit in their pay checks so the solution would be to cut jobs to lower operating cost, forgo future expansion thereby eliminating any future job creations and divest itself of no to low profit divisions thereby cutting even more jobs held by the middle class workers. What I do support is jobs for people who want them.

As for the Enron thing...those people are criminals which I do not support.
What it boils down to is I don't see wealthy people as the bad guys that need to pay more than their fair share. Of course there are the few that are just obnoxious about their wealth but they do create the jobs that most folks have. The welfare folks create no jobs except the bureaucrats that run the system and I believe that Sarah Palin thinks the way I do and that's why I support her nomination as Vice President.

You know Jtapia, I don't think it's entirely black and white, I believe there are elements of truth to both of our view points. Bottom line is it's a complicated situation and we have to go with the person we believe will best navigate that situation with everyones best interests in mind.

Though I don't entirely agree, thanks for a well stated post explaining your position!

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