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Location: Misouri
Joined: 11/30/2005
Posts: 365
Long Range Hunting
remington wrote:
remington wrote:
Don Fischer wrote:
The problem I have with relating hunting to sniping is that one is about sport and the other war. quote

interesting comment and making me think

wait for it.......

Yea, I got nothing. Laugh

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Location: Phila., PA
Joined: 03/15/2007
Posts: 171
Re: Long Range Hunting

This has become a somewhat facinating thread to me...

The question...

91xlt wrote:
Was wondering which long range hunting cal., make and model rifle you are using?

has sparked 5 pages of conversation containing,

if my counting is correct,
72 posts, 8 of which actually gave an answer to the question asked.

with topics ranging from,

-some bashing,
-some load, recipe and site in data,
-general pro/con discussion of the long range hunting topic,
-varmint hunting
-and now snipers.

i realize this comparison has been discussed on the web before.
i do not understand why the comparison arrises.

i know there are some skills that intertwine, stalking, camo, proper shot placement, fieldcraft, and the list can go on, but that is it. some common skills/tools.
a book keeper and a CPA certainly use some same skills and tools, but are not compared.

the more you compare a sniper and hunter, the less similar they become...

* a military sniper
-is generally following orders,
-well trained,
-well practiced,
-and not always trying to deliver a "kill" shot., a "hit" can sometimes be a success, eliminating the target at least temporary, aiding in pschological warfare, distraction, disabling equipment or other strategic roles.etc..etc...

i have no idea of how much range time a sniper gets in, but i would be willing to bet, it is ALOT more than most hunters put in.

*a hunter
-has a choice, has not been ordered or commanded to "take the shot"
-an ethical responsability to harvest game in as quick and clean manner as possible

and these lists, in my opinion can go on, and on.

everyone has and is entitled to there own opinion, there is no magic distance, making one persons opinion right, or anothers wrong.
each hunter should realize there limitations, of skill and equipment.

like i said, this has become a really facinating thread to me

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Location: Somewhere Up There
Joined: 01/06/2007
Posts: 217
Long Range Hunting

Normal human conversation evolves. The conversation flows and veers and everyone interjects their opinions and more often than not it digresses into different points - some of them relevant and some not. Sorry if you don't see the correlation between hitting a target by trained professionals versus less practiced individuals. To me it's clear as day, and apparently since it keeps coming up on other threads a lot of other people see the correlation as well.

CVC
CVC's picture
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Grand Slam Challenge Winner!
Location: Kansas
Joined: 03/04/2006
Posts: 3586
Long Range Hunting

I don't think that the military sniper does was suggested to be the same as long range hunting, but instead used as the standard for long range shooting; suggesting that if the "gold standard" doesn't do it why would the average hunter think he can?

The military sets standards that civilians follow. For example, it would be no different than two pilots talking about an acrobatic move and one saying, "whoa, what makes you think you can attempt it when even the Blue Angels won't attempt that manuever?"

I am sure bookkeepers look to the standards set by CPA as a guide to what they do. If an accounting practice is unacceptable to CPAs then one could suggest that it be unacceptable to bookkeepers to. Just as it makes sense to suggest that if a military sniper will try to keep their shots under 500 yards then so should the civilian who generally has less skills than the professional military sniper.

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Location: Phila., PA
Joined: 03/15/2007
Posts: 171
Long Range Hunting
CVC wrote:
I don't think that the military sniper does was suggested to be the same as long range hunting, but instead used as the standard for long range shooting; .

good point. Yes

Don Fischer's picture
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Location: Antelope, Ore
Joined: 03/24/2005
Posts: 3183
Long Range Hunting

I guess long range is never really clearly defined. Somewhere between 300 +/- yds on out to the absurb. Also seem's to me that maybe the perception of a need for a long range rifle is really just that, perception.

Not only here but on other sites where this subject comes up, it seem's most people concidering it or doing it are people that live where you can't see that far. They come out west and can look across two county's and decide they need a cartridge that will shoot across them, just in case!

Now we have our own fair share of long range people out here too. And there are places here where stalking can be a real problem, eastern Colo being one, in places. But we choose where we hunt. Well I think some people out here keep this perception alive for reason's of their own and they have no bearing on what is normal or necessary. We shoot at X# yds because we can. Not because of nesessity.

As to a good cartridge for long range hunting, it's the same as say 200 yd shooting. The point being, it takes the same exact thing to kill something at 2000 yds as it does at 50 yds. It's simply easier to deliver the blow at 50 yds. The 250-3000 has killed lots of deer even out to maybe 300 yds. I strongly suspect that a 308 Win will deliver more power at 500 yds! Yet according to some the 250-3000 is a 300 yd deer cartridge but the 308 win is not a 500 yd deer cartridge. How's that work?

As for the ability to hit due to balistic differences, once you start raising the muzzle to compensate for bullet drop, you need to be a shooter because you have left the area where the cartridge has the ability to place a good hit without help from the shooter. Because of that, a 25-06 that you can score good hit's with at say 500 yds is much more effective than a 30-378 you can't!

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Location: Somewhere Up There
Joined: 01/06/2007
Posts: 217
Long Range Hunting

Don, good points.

CVC: what you said on your last post is what I was trying to say - you just put it into better words. It's not a perfect comparison, but still very valid if one is discussing or philosophizing about such a thing.

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Location: Pipestone, MN
Joined: 01/02/2008
Posts: 117
Long Range Hunting
Don Fischer wrote:
I don't do this thing called long range hunting. My hunting rifle's are zero'd in for max point blank range and I shoot within that range, usually far less.

I'm enjoying long range shooting but I leave it as a sport of it's own. Long range shooting is shooting at target's at long range. Should something go other than as I expect, I prefer that target to not bleed.

I'm with Don here.
Well with the exception of the likes of crows, ditchtigers, and prairie dogs etc.
But for big game like Don I set up for point blank range(1/3 the intended animals kill zone for me). Then I practice from field positions on steel gongs, 1/2 the size of the intended animals kill zone.
I back up untill I can no longer put 3 consecutive shots on the gong. The distance at which the last consecutive hits were made, is my max range.
Now normally I can "fudge" the pbr some and go longer. But it matters little,the 3 hot rule stands. This gives me a built in margin for error.
With most of the center fire stuff I shoot, this puts me in the 250-275yd range.
Personally I like to hunt, and get as close as I can.
There are some cartridges out there that can push "my rules" another 100 yds or so, But really when it gets much beyond 300,, too many things can go wrong, turning a clean kill into wouded tracking job. Doping the wind, reading the grade, and judging distance when out that far, becomes critical. Not to mention, the animals movement at the wrong time at that range can mean the same wounding results.
I'm not condeming others and what they do, it's their choice. Although I do feel there are some that do it just to showboat or are there for killing. This is just how I look at it, and what works for me.
Dave

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Location: seward alaska
Joined: 02/04/2008
Posts: 20
Long range rifle...

....I am a little late on this thread....I am a new member. I really learned a lot by reading all the different posts on the subject, especially since most of all our harvesting shots (successful, I might add) for sheep,black bearand Kodiak brown bear,have all been at 400 yards. My guy and I have never had a shot on a sheep less than 300 yards.
....Though I believe, for hunting ethics sake, that one should try to get as close as possible before taking a shot....that KNOWING THE BALLISTICS capability of your gun,whatever the make or model......at different yardages, and a working knowledge thereof, is so impotant.....

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Joined: 02/15/2008
Posts: 4
Re: Long Range Hunting
91xlt wrote:
Was wondering which long range hunting cal., make and model rifle you are using?

When using a rifle, most of my long range deer and elk have been killed with a 7mm Dakota chambering. This is pretty comparable to the 7mm STW in velocity. Most of my kills have been between 500 and 600 yards with one at 690. Most have been one shot kills with a 176 grain Cauterucio VLD at about 3100 FPS. Custom rifle with McMillan stock and Nesika action.

Two years ago I started hunting in a county of Wisconsin that doesn't allow rifles but does allow centerfire handguns. So I had a custom XP-100 bolt action handgun made up in 6.5/270 WSM. I shoot a 141 grain Cauterucio VLD bullet at about 2,800 FPS out of the 18 inch barrel. I shot 2 deer at 200 yards and one at 501 yards last fall.

This was my second year hunting whitetails in Waupaca County, Wisconsin. On opening weekend all around me I could hear boom, boom, boom, boom...until the neighbors' shotguns were emptied on running deer. Running at 30mph through open farm fields or dodging trees with shotgun slugs slamming into thick branches. Most were missed repeatedly. One limped onto my friend's land and then on to the next fusilade on the next-over piece of land. Funny how you rarely read criticism of guys shooting at deer while they are running or while they are hiding in brushy cover.

Meanwhile, I calmly waited for the perfect shot opportunity at a known range, with good wind conditions and an undisturbed quarry while shooting prone with a small sand bag for a rear rest. Without a doubt, my success is an order of magnitude greater than a huge number of hunters who don't shoot "long".

91xlt, this is a very fine hunting forum site but if you would like some more answers to your questions about the topic, take a look at http://www.LongRangeHunting.com

Len Backus

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