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Location: USA
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INFORMATION on African hunting??RANT!

The thread titaled VERGIN SAFARI HUNTER or something like that, made me laugh when I heard some of the so-called infromation offered as FACT, that was given you, were right out of the PETA play book of lies!!Laugh

csumerall,Most of the responses you have received here are a real indictment of the ignorance that has been thought by the mainstream media! The problem is, these misconceptions are repeated by those who do not know better, and are simply exacerbating those misconceptions. The absolute worse place you can look for information on hunting in Africa, is on a basic deer hunter's web-site. That doesn't mean deer hunter web-sites are somehow inferior, just that is isn't the best place to get good information on African hunting.

You can go to any deer camp with hunters who have hunted all their lives, and ask the question "WHERE ARE THE PLACES WHERE YOU CAN HUNT ELEPHANT?" and if there are ten people around the camp fire, you will get at least eight who will tell you that it is illegal to hunt elephant. Nothing could be farther from the truth. In fact, elephant are to the point that they are destroying their own habitat, and costing the livelihood of lesser animals by that destruction, and must be culled.

The person, who will not hunt Africa, because he can't bring the meat back, is hurting the wildlife in Africa, for no reason. Nothing of legally taken animals is wasted in Africa. If you think a vulture can clean bones, you simply have not witnessed a protein starved African clean the meat from the bones of an elephant. A 16,000 lb elephant is reduced to bare bones, and a wet spot on the ground in 5, or 6 hours, and there will be a dozen, cooking fires going around the ele, as people gorge themselves. What on Earth would a person do with 10,000 lbs of meat if you could bring it home, anyway? Not to mention about $30,000 USD for shipping of frozen meat by air! Besides

Safari hunting is the only thing that will guarantee the wild life, there, a continued existence. Safari hunting places a value on the animals that encourages the locals to protect them. The safari companies give employment to the locals, and the excess meat, that is not used in the safari camps, is either given to them, or sold to them very cheaply. The alternative to that is, they use snares in a poaching, and the snares are very indiscriminant in what they take. The snare cares not if an animal is the last of it's kind, or if it is an elephant's trunk, severing it. An African doesn’t hunt for pleasure, he only hunts for profit, or to feed his family, and neither pursuit is legal to the local, as a rule. If the wild life has no monetary value to the local, it become bush meat, and will be killed out, and a plow taken to the land, to grow sadza!

The news media in this country has everyone brain washed, and to hear them tell it, everything in Africa, is either endangered, or extinct! The salvation of wildlife everywhere is in it's value as a sustainable resource. The tree, and bunny huggers do absolutely nothing to safe guard the continued existence of any animal. All they do is hinder the efforts of those of us who pay the bills to keep wildlife wild, and valuable, so the locals who compete directly with the wildlife for space, and crops, will protect them because of that value placed on them by hunters.

IMO,People need to be sure of the things they write are true before placeing them on aninternational forum, for the world to absorb! Brick Wall,)

SORRY COULDN'T RESIST!

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Location: Eatonville, Wa
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INFORMATION on African hunting??RANT!

hey dug, i im just curious what part of the thread were you refering to, I thought everyone gave me pretty good advice and a lot of good leads for quality PH services.

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INFORMATION on African hunting??RANT!

Dugaboy...

While everyone is entitled to express opinions here, and I agree with some of what you have stated, but, I cannot draw a line between your "rant" and the thread you reffered to.
.
While there was some opinions expressed, they where stated as such and not being delivered as facts.

While this is not an Africa specific hunting site, it has a number of members who offer and give, for the most part good advice, based on they're own experiences, from deer, to elk, to caribou, to sheep and yes Africa.

I did not see any references to hunting elephant being illegal anywhere in that thread.

As far as the member who does not want to hunt Africa due to not being able to bring meat home...his opinion and his option. While you stated bringing 16,000 lbs of elephant meat back being rediculous, maybe that is extreme, how about a 100lb springbocks meat...that would not be extreme IF it was legal, which we know it is not.

While safari hunting IS most defenitely good for Africa, it is NOT good for everyone. To each there own my friend. Yes

The news media has nothing to do with either this thread or the thread being refered to, period.

There was some good advice and info given.
EVERY forum has a bit of exaguration, mis-conception and mis-understanding in it.
EVERYONE is entitled to there own opinion.
I saw no deliberate ignorance...

I would like to hear more specifically what you are refering to. Think

Respectfully,
Jeff

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Location: USA
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Posts: 166
INFORMATION on African hunting??RANT!
91xlt wrote:
Dugaboy...

While everyone is entitled to express opinions here, and I agree with some of what you have stated, but, I cannot draw a line between your "rant" and the thread you reffered to.
.
While there was some opinions expressed, they where stated as such and not being delivered as facts.

While this is not an Africa specific hunting site, it has a number of members who offer and give, for the most part good advice, based on they're own experiences, from deer, to elk, to caribou, to sheep and yes Africa.

I did not see any references to hunting elephant being illegal anywhere in that thread.

As far as the member who does not want to hunt Africa due to not being able to bring meat home...his opinion and his option. While you stated bringing 16,000 lbs of elephant meat back being rediculous, maybe that is extreme, how about a 100lb springbocks meat...that would not be extreme IF it was legal, which we know it is not.

While safari hunting IS most defenitely good for Africa, it is NOT good for everyone. To each there own my friend. Yes

The news media has nothing to do with either this thread or the thread being refered to, period.

There was some good advice and info given.
EVERY forum has a bit of exaguration, mis-conception and mis-understanding in it.
EVERYONE is entitled to there own opinion.
I saw no deliberate ignorance...

I would like to hear more specifically what you are refering to. Think

Respectfully,
Jeff

Sorry the words didn't come out as I meant them! That being said, my reference to the media, being part of this is, indicated below, with people repeting a conception given by the press, and stateing it as fact. True I could have done a better job of getting my point across, and for that I apologize!

Mr Davis gave some good info, simply because he was posting from a platform of personal knowledge, while the bad info was bits of hear-say, and opinion. Not a crime, and,Im sure not done to misslead, but just dispensing this as FACT is not only wrong,even going so far as to make comment on the size of the mosquitos in Africa, when it is evident he has never been within 5000 miles of Africa!

Wrong info, stated as fact, will hender the origenal poster in his search for proper information. Sometimes people believe what ever they read in a web-site, and do things that get them into real trouble when they de-plane in Africa. The rules for doing anything in Africa, are serious matters, and can cost a person, not only money, but his freedom, as well.

The reference to 16,000 lbs of meat, you speak of, I believe it was 10,000 lbs of meat, not 16, and was refering to the whole bag of even a 14 day plains game hunt in Africa. That amount of meat on the ground is not uncommon, on a 14 day safari. I've put 8,000 lbs of butchered meat on the smoker rack in three days, and I assure you it was not wasted. It fed a whole village for a week.

The point I was trying to make is, the anti hunting media has given everyone the idea that Africa is where hunters kill for a set of horns, and a cape, and leave the meat to rot in the field. This is not true, and as I said nothing is wasted in Africa, and there is nothing wrong with takeing trophies for your wall, and eating some of the meat while you are there, and the people of Africa, need that meat far more than any fat-cat in this country.

IMO, the poster who stated he had no use for Africa hunting, because of the meat was under the impression that the meat is wasted. I may be wrong, I have been before, and will be again, but that but that whole string smacked of MEDIA HYPE!
When we write things like that, it only furthers the misconceptions spread by folks like PeTA! Make no mistake the PeTA heads are lurking the hunting forums, looking to use our own words against us. SO , rather than take exception to someone calling attention to wrong information, it should be encouraged!

You are correct, the "Media" has nothing to do with the running of this web-site, but as indicated below, it has certainly influenced the opinions, that were stated here as fact!

Some of the points are quoted below, but not all. Jeff, there are a few things I will always challange, and they are, suggesting anything illegal as being a good idea, stateing opinion as fact, when it is wrong, and reccomending anything that is unsafe! So if that is not allowed on this web-site, I don't think you need my input any longer! Just let me know what you decide!

BAD INFO

cam69conv

As far as your mounts, If memory serves you will have to submit an application and the mount will be done there... Will take a while. Shame on You!

BAD INFO
cam69conv
Sportsman
Hey CvC... You would have to have them done there Shame on You!

BAD INFO

cam69conv
Sportsman

Highveld is authorised to perform all of the necessary treatments to safely ship green trophies to any destination. Shame on You!

BAD INFO

cam69conv
The import broker will then ship the green trophies to a taxidermist certified to receive green trophies in the United States. Shame on You!

GOOD INFO BELOW

kevin davis

i have been to africa three times. you can bring back any hide, skull, horns that you wish, but it must be done in the proper manner. your trophy parts must be "dipped and packed" with the acompanying veterinary certificates and must be sent thru one of the 8 entry ports approved by USFWS, so not any airport will do, you must have them delivered to an "authorized" taxidermist (this is new as i had my hides delivered directly to me in 2003), and it does not matter if you tan the hides there or here as far as shipping goes,they get salted and treated and come over. mounting there or here is a matter of choice, but it is harder to deal with a poor mount done there than here. there are stories both ways. if you have a CITES trophy, then you need the correct export permits (the PH should handle that) and/or import permits from USFWS. you will almost certainly have to deal with a company such as Coppersmith to handle all the shipping, customs, USFWS, and brokerage issues. you can expect to pay about $1500 to $3000 for all this service, depending an what is shipped to you. you will not get anything for a minimum of 4-6 months, possibly longer.

if you are looking at a plains game hunt, my suggestion would be to get kudu, gemsbok, eland, blue and/or black wildebeest, springbok or blesbok, impala if available, and a zebra if available. the package deals are OK, but i prefer to customize my trophy list for just what i want. of course, the list could be longer, but money always becomes an issue at some point. check to see what is offered at the place, definitely avoid a charter if you can, and if they do not list their trophy fees and daily rates and what is included in them, beware.

good luck Thumbs up

Indication of talking about something you know nothing about, and stateing it as fact
cam69conv
So in other words you cant "bring them back" but you have to wait like 6 months at least before your Taxidermist can even begin right? Thats kinna what I thought just from what Ive seen and looked up for him. LoL Like I said. Sounds like a little too much trouble and expence for a head onna wall. But thats just me. I have money because I dont blow it. Memories and some really good pictures!!! LOL Have a blast and good luck on your adventures.

Oh yeah dont forget, they have mosquitos down there that you could book a flight on dem buggers are HUGE!!!!!!
Big smile

Don Fischer's picture
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INFORMATION on African hunting??RANT!

A year or so ago Mac was in the hospital in Texas. I read a few of his posts and started some PM's with him. What I found was a guy that dearly loves hunting, especially Africa and seem's extreamly knowledgeable on it. Not to take anything away from other members here but Mac and his passion for hunting and desire to see it properly reported set's a very high standard.

I recall him telling me in a PM that he was sometimes a bit outspoken in that he's more than willing to say whats on his mind and to expose bad information.

I like Mac! I'm also sure that if I get it wrong, he'll give me the hell I got coming. Your a credit to this site my friend; your a credit to sport hunting!

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Location: austin and amarillo texas
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INFORMATION on African hunting??RANT!

Whew, glad I didn't make the list. Like you said, there might be a few sites more equipped Think to give knowledgeable advice about such things. I think calls to outfitters and PH's along with reading might be a bit more reliable than info. off the net. Thumbs up

All that said, sharing knowledge, often pointing out the lack there of, and expressing opinion on opinions are some of the very reasons for these sites.... right? Yes

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Location: Summit, IL
Joined: 10/22/2006
Posts: 706
INFORMATION on African hunting??RANT!

Ok I just saw all this CRAP and sorry but HAVE to respond!!!

#1 ALL the stuff you said BAD INFO to was taken DIRECTLY from information sites IN AFRICA for taxidermy.
BAD INFO

cam69conv

As far as your mounts, If memory serves you will have to submit an application and the mount will be done there... Will take a while.

BAD INFO
cam69conv
Sportsman
Hey CvC... You would have to have them done there

BAD INFO

cam69conv
Sportsman

Highveld is authorised to perform all of the necessary treatments to safely ship green trophies to any destination.

BAD INFO

cam69conv
The import broker will then ship the green trophies to a taxidermist certified to receive green trophies in the United States.

Taken DIRECTLY from Highveld Taxidermy in SOUTH AFRICA

Also before you start trying to POINT out things stop trying to prove your point by taking things out of context. I also stated that I PERSONALLY wouldnt hunt Africa because I am a meat hunter and couldnt bring home the meat. Did I say in ANY way that someone is wrong for doing it? Not in ANY way shape form or fashion young man and to imply that I did was sheer lunacy!! And as far as me talking about the mosquitos, do you actually have any clue yourself about the insects in the African regions? because if you dont think there are some huge skeeters down there you are highly mistaken.

Now for my feelings as far as the meat I think that if you looked again you will see that I stated to make sure they gave the meat to a needy family or something to that nature and not let it go to waste.

To compare my feelings about trophy hunting and PeTa is stupidity period. I hate PeTa and all they stand for as much as any other hunter. Just because I personaly dont care to spend 20 to 30k (including mounts with shipping and all) for a damn head on a wall is just that... MY FEELINGS on the subject and I stated that QUITE CLEARLY with "thats just me" Do I fault someone else for it? Hell no... If you can afford it go for it.

Now where you posted "good info" If you actually READ what both mine and his say, They say the SAME DAMN THING. You will have to have it GREEN TREATED BEFORE you can get it shipped to the US and then it still has to be shipped to the PROPER authorities in the US and to a Licensed taxidermist licensed to handle mounts from Africa.

Anything from a live animal coming from Africa is getting harder and harder to get into this country for a damn reason. Africa is LOADED with disease and thats not just a media hype or misconseption its FACT. And they are getting stricter about the treatments of the hides and heads because of this FACT. So stop trying to finger point out things and take things TOTALY out of context when its pretty plain and evident that you dont have a clue how to read!

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INFORMATION on African hunting??RANT!
cam69conv wrote:
Ok I just saw all this CRAP and sorry but HAVE to respond!!!

cam69conv, I sorry if what I posted insulted you, it wasn't meant to! However, since it did, and you think you are 100% on your facts, let me tell you the laws haven't changed much in the last 20 yrs I've hunted Africa. There is absolutely no reason you have to have mounts done in Africa, regardless of what you were told. That is pure CRAP, as you like to put it. In fact if you want mounts that are worth hanging, you better have them done in the USA. I have a house full to prove that fact!

Quote:
#1 ALL the stuff you said BAD INFO to was taken DIRECTLY from information sites IN AFRICA for taxidermy.

BAD INFO

Well CAM, Africa has nothing to do with hides shipped to the USA, other than to pack and dip them for shipment, and to obtain export, and import forms, unless you are takeing a CITES animal, then you must apply for a CITES permit, so you can accept the trophy in the USA.

If you got your info from a taxidermy outfit in Africa, you better not use them, that is, if you ever actually go to Africa. I understand you don't want to hunt Africa, but you are giving some screwed up advice to those who may want to.

Quote:
cam69conv

As far as your mounts, If memory serves you will have to submit an application and the mount will be done there... Will take a while.

BAD INFO

Not true, other than it will take a while, about a year, all that is needed is an address where they are to be shipped, and your safari company will take care of the rest

Quote:
cam69conv
Sportsman
Hey CvC... You would have to have them done there

BAD INFO

Where on Earth did you get that from? If it was from an African taxidermy web-site, then it was designed to get your business, nothing more! ,

Quote:
cam69conv
Sportsman
Highveld is authorised to perform all of the necessary treatments to safely ship green trophies to any destination.

BAD INFO

HIGHVELD is authorized to do the dip& pack to ship your "TREATED" cape, and horns, not "GREEN" hide&horn

Quote:
The import broker will then ship the green trophies to a taxidermist certified to receive green trophies in the United States.
Taken DIRECTLY from Highveld Taxidermy in SOUTH AFRICA

BAD INFO

cam69conv , No import broker is authorized to accept GREEN HIDES from Africa

Quote:
Also before you start trying to POINT out things stop trying to prove your point by taking things out of context. I also stated that I PERSONALLY wouldnt hunt Africa because I am a meat hunter and couldnt bring home the meat. Did I say in ANY way that someone is wrong for doing it? Not in ANY way shape form or fashion young man and to imply that I did was sheer lunacy!! And as far as me talking about the mosquitos, do you actually have any clue yourself about the insects in the African regions? because if you dont think there are some huge skeeters down there you are highly mistaken.

YOUNG MAN?? I have an idea, I had killed my first head of dangerous game before you were born,I have no idea how old you are, but my youngest child is 44 yrs old, and the oldest of four is 51 yrs old!

SO SON I didn't take anything out of context, I only quoted the things you said that were not true! As far as the mosquitoes in Africa, they are no larger than anyplace else in the world! I do have a clue about the insects in Africa, and I have given more blood to them than a days take in a blood bank, well it seemed like that much anyway! There are many things in Africa that are far worse than the mosquitoes,as long as you take your maleria meds! The tsetse flies, and the mopani flies, will eat you alive in many places. Any place where you have Cape Buffalo, you will have tsetse flies. And as I said if you ever really go to Africa, then talk about how bad things are there, from a base of actual experience!

Quote:
Now for my feelings as far as the meat I think that if you looked again you will see that I stated to make sure they gave the meat to a needy family or something to that nature and not let it go to waste.

In the first place, you have no say in where the meat goes that you take on Safari, passed what you request be cooked for you in camp! Again another OPINION, of yours that is off base! I can assure you the meat will not be wasted, however!

Quote:
To compare my feelings about trophy hunting and PeTa is stupidity period. I hate PeTa and all they stand for as much as any other hunter. Just because I personaly dont care to spend 20 to 30k (including mounts with shipping and all) for a damn head on a wall is just that... MY FEELINGS on the subject and I stated that QUITE CLEARLY with "thats just me" Do I fault someone else for it? Hell no... If you can afford it go for it.

The above is what I meant about what I said not coming out exactly the way I meant it! What I was referring to is the things you think, wrongly, to be facts, are almost identical to the CRAP that PeTA puts out to scare folks away from hunting in Africa, and in my opinion, your take on that is fostered by the media at large, repeating what PeTA, and other like dummies put out as fact! I'm sure you believe the only reason to hunt is for food, and that is your right, however,in that opinion, you are dead wrong. You may practice anything the law allows you to practice, but that has no bearing on the truth. There is absolutely no difference between a trophy hunter, and a meat hunter,excepth a meat hunter will usually take the first legal animal he sees, but the trophy hunter is far more selective, and will go home without an animal, rather than shoot a young one! No difference as long as neither takes more that the law allows. IN both cases the animals dies, and whether a pack of Hyenas feeds on the carcass, or you eat it, the meat is not wasted. In all cases the meat is consumed by people, not hyenas! Still what you have done for the Hyena is what you pay the butcher to do for you, when you buy a steak at the store, someone else kills it, and you eat it.

Quote:
Now where you posted "good info" If you actually READ what both mine and his say, They say the SAME DAMN THING. You will have to have it GREEN TREATED BEFORE you can get it shipped to the US and then it still has to be shipped to the PROPER authorities in the US and to a Licensed taxidermist licensed to handle mounts from Africa.

As I said earlier this may simply be a case of semantics, because GREEN HIDES, and TREATED HIDES are two different things!

Quote:
Anything from a live animal coming from Africa is getting harder and harder to get into this country for a damn reason. Africa is LOADED with disease and thats not just a media hype or misconseption its FACT. And they are getting stricter about the treatments of the hides and heads because of this FACT.

There are no more diseases in Africa today, than there were in 1900, except for AIDS, and the hides have nothing to do with the transmission of that. The rules are the same today as they were on my first safari in 1982, and the small changes are because of the people like PeTA, and the Media spreading outright lies, as fact! BADINFO

Quote:
So stop trying to finger point out things and take things TOTALY out of context when its pretty plain and evident that you dont have a clue how to read!

I have a clue you don’t have any idea about anything in Africa, or any of the rules of doing a safari there, and that you are simply miffed because you were called on your ignorant OPINIONS, stated as FACT, in a public forum where you made them!

I'm sorry about this, because I hate makeing enemies, and I'm sure I've made one of you. Cry baby I will however, make myself scarce around here, so you can post opinion as fact on an African hunting forum with impunity, and without any first hand experience! Thumbs up

Don Fischer's picture
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Mac I for one would miss you greatly. There are far to few people around with not only your experience but also a willingness to share it.

Cam, your in way over your head. Ya really ought to let it go.

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INFORMATION on African hunting??RANT!

Mac I dont see you as an enemie at all. What riled me was you clearly taking things I said out of context.

Ill show you exactly what I mean here... cam69conv
Sportsman
Hey CvC... You would have to have them done there [you put that in as a quote yet you didnt finish it... Ill do that for you. " Hey CvC... You would have to have them done there or at least left there for curing and such. No fresh animal hides or meat are allowed into the US from Africa. Thats according to the US Customs page."

Now if you wish to argue that feel free to go argue with the US CUSTOMS as that is EXACTLY how it is stated on thier page

Another FACT was that you were arguing on a simple MISS PRINT that was OBVIOUSLY meant to say or mean Green Treated as anyone with a moderate to even low amount of simple common sense would know that it didnt mean shipping RAW hides or sculls and it was also copied directly from one of the most reputable taxidermist shops in south africa.

As far as me not knowing about insects there buddy, I too have donated many a pints of blood to many pesky lil critters in my service with our nations Navy and been to every far corner on this planet. Just because I havent or do not plan to hunt in Africa doesnt mean I do not know some things or have the ability to do some simple research. Some that ask questions on here sometimes just do not have the right way to form a question on search engines to generate quality results. Not to mention Ive got tons of friends that are hunters and some have been, like you, to Africa on MANY safari so I get first hand info from them.

Now to address the lil comment about meat hunting. While I dont trophy hunt, I do manage all the properties I hunt on very diligently by culling out does and mature bucks with lessor gene structures and reducing the populations to a number that the property can maintain a healthy herd and no I wouldnt pass up a buck thats sporting a hella rack if he met the age criteria i.e. 5+ years but I would RATHER take a nice healthy 2 year old Doe for the freezer myself as that buck would only be fit for jerky and the crock pot.

While that is just my OPINION I do NOT fault anyone if they trophy hunt. To each his own is my favorite saying. No I dont shoot the first legal thing I see running through the woods unless Its a nice fat healthy doe and I need to take some out of the herd. Dont shoot lil bucks unless its a 3 year old sporting a forkhorn rack then yeah its dead meat in the freezer because I wouldnt want him breeding.

I had a couple of friends that went to Africa just last year and to comment on you saying you have no control over the meat is incorrect as they were ASKED if there was any special place they would like to see the meat go. They had it given to the locals in a village nearby where a couple of the trackers were from. Which may have been what would have been done with it anyway but they WERE asked and not told what to do with it. And BTW they STILL have not gotten thier mounts back yet.

While there may have been a couple of things I may have missed or was mistaken on, you did jump out at me clearly taking things completely out of context. I do not know how long it has been since you have been on safari but things may have changed more than you realize. All the information I gave him came directly from US Customs and 3 very reputable taxidermists. Sorry Mac but I really dont think you or anyone else on here including me can argue the facts that US Customs post. If they have it wrong on thier rules and regulations then that should be cleared up but I dont think they do.

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INFORMATION on African hunting??RANT!

i just got back from 10 days in hawaii and i see things got a little heated around here. wonder why i needed a vacation after a long africa hunt? Laugh well, i just felt like it. i hope with all the explanations and apologies i have been reading, that everyone has settled down and agreed to get along. one thing i have noticed about internet communications is that so much is written in a hurry, and sometimes without necessary regard to how others might translate the meaning , that tempers can flare needlessly. certainly the media have almost never been a friend to african hunting, especially the visual media. everyone loves the shows and the beauty seen, but the shows do not provide good conservation information in context to the people:animal conflicts going on all over africa. i can gaurantee, that any animal doned over there is eaten, either by people or other animals. one of the cape buffalo i shot was completely devoured by vultures in less than 30 hours, nothing left but bones and the grass from the stomach. the camp was full of meat and no locals were nearby, so the vultures got it.. was it wasted? perhaps yes, perhaps no. africa is a great place to hunt, but you cannot transfer our tightly regulated system here over there. that is not how things work there. Think

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