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Location: Pennsylvania
Joined: 10/28/2003
Posts: 1647
How do you define FAIR CHASE HUNTING?

Good subject!!!
My 2 cents.
If I had 2 or 3 million acres to hunt. Yippe! .............I dont.
So now you know that people can be limited to where they can hunt. I happen to be pretty lucky. I have many small pieces of land to hunt on but, I know for a fact that not everyone does. Nor does every one have the time to spend 4 to 5 months in the woods like I do. I hunt "fair chase" well...what does that mean? I scout the area and find deer. I know just where they are when its time for me to go sit on the stand. I sit there and wait. When the deer comes (and they do.) I shoot it. Is that fair chase? I think so. Now lets say I don't have all this land to hunt or the time to go and scout before every hunt but, I really want to go hunting. Do I hire an outfitter that is in the woods for 4 to 5 months (or longer) a year, that knows the ins and outs of this land because they have been hunting it forever? Now he can scout the animals and set me up on a stand so I can wait for the animal to walk by so I can shoot it. Is that fair chase? (a lot of people think it is.). Or I can pay someone to hunt on thier land it could be 400 acres of the thickest mountain side where the animals cant get out but they know the land inside out and how to avoid hunters. Or it could be 55,000 acres of hills prairie and scrub brush but these animals also know the land way better than any human that comes in. You just try to get "close" to them without spooking them. Do you think they won't run away? I don't consider it fair chase but I believe it could be a challenge. I also don't think that people who chose to spend there time and money "hunting" this way should be crucified for what they do. If they are satisfied doing this I am very happy for them...Have fun!
Doesn't anybody remember that this is AMERICA? Why is it that everybody want's to tell everybody else what they can and can't do? I personally don't want to hunt a preserve but, if you want to...more power to ya. God bless America.

When you say "most people that condem preserve hunting, never have hunted one" That is a true statement but, they havent hunted it because it goes against "thier" ethics and the majority never will hunt one.
If you can sit in judgement of others just remember that while you drive up in a $45,000 SUV with your stainless steel rifle and your amazing shoot by moonlight scope and your $400 all season jacket and $250 boots so you can stay out all day with scents galore and grunt calls or whatever advantage you bring with you to help you get your quarry. Someone out there trully believes in thier heart that this is not hunting either and how ethical is that? (and you wouldn't want them telling you...YOU CAN'T do that). So before you condem someone else....Take a good look at yourself and realize at the end we all stand alone and are responseible for our actions and words and the judgements we make. Live and let live.

[ This Message was edited by: hunter777 on 2003-11-20 22:26 ]

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Location: Utah
Joined: 10/12/2003
Posts: 25
How do you define FAIR CHASE HUNTING?

"Take a good look at yourself and realize at the end we all stand alone and are responseible for our actions and words and the judgements we make."

In my own mind your statement is true and should be true. But as a group(hunters), sadly it is not. No matter how you or I hunt, the national perception of hunters will be based on what is seen on TV, read in papers, or based on what the last unethical hunter did.

I remember an instance in Utah a few years ago on the opening of the deer hunt. The news crews were out getting reports of opening day when they came across a motor home with 2 hunters sitting on top with their guns. Yes, these guys were hunting from the top of their motor home. The picture made the paper and the Public Forum section of the paper was filled with comments from unhappy citizens wanting to know what hunting was coming to. Although I was not the one who did this, I was condemned in the public eye becasue I was a hunter. And boy did I hear about it!

Getting back to the topic, would it be fair to say that the definition of FAIR CHASE is that the animal being hunted has an equal chance of eluding you as you do of harvesting it?

Happy Huntin

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Location: South Africa
Joined: 12/03/2003
Posts: 1
How do you define FAIR CHASE HUNTING?

Somone stuck his head out to be chopped off and so touched a topic very close to my heart. So I'll also stick my head out. Maybe someone can gain a better perspective from my ranting, well then I'm happy to have my head chopped. So here goes:
The term "preserve hunting" seems to be very much like most of the hunting done in South Africa today. The same degree of abuse of the system may be present on both sides of the pond?
In South Africa most, by far the most, hunting is done on privately owned land. In most cases the land is fenced in such a manner that game can not readily escape from the enclosed area. Now when can hunting of such game be considered ethical? (To try to explain the concept of ethical hunting "behind-the-fence" I will have to make some statementse greatly simplified. In separate arguments I will defend my statements fully, but here the simplistic version.)
Many species of game animals, or at least the trophy males, are strongly territorial. That means they stay all their adult life in a relatively small area marked by a system of scents, sound and whatever the particular species uses. A male outside his own territory is "always" attacked in some or other way by the holder of the territory to drive him off. If a hunter approaches, and the territorial animal becomes aware of the hunter first, he will flee to some other place within his own territory. Should the hunter track him there, he will probably still be very alert and hear or see the approaching huter long before the hunter can see his intended quarry. The territorial male will then again flee to yet another place within his own territory. Only under extreme pressure will the persued animal flee into the next-door territory. If he does so, he will very soon try to get of the neighbouring territory and back to his own well known area. The persued animal is never ever going to flee "into the next county", but will always remain near his own territory. Now if the enclosing fenced area is many times larger than the territory of the hunted animal I say the hunt is ethical. So an impala may be very ethically hunted on an enclosed area of only a few hundered acres, as the impala will only use his own, say 75 acrea territory to try to evade a hunter. If this impala is in an enclosed area of 750 acres, ore 7500 acres or 75000 acres or on the whole of the unfenced Botswana, the hunt is going to be exactly the same in every instance. If however this impala has been release together with a few others a week before the hunt stats in a tiny 15 acres enclosure, no hunting can ever be ethical. I call such a hunt "a canned hunt". This is one of the evils that some (a small minority) of the hunting outfitters in South Africa do to guarantee that their clients gets the best trophies. I can provide a few names of American hunters who I've warned about this on their way to a South African safari, and they were actually offered a trophy nyala held in a 60 acres little "slaughtering camp". Credit due to this particular American sportsman as he flatly refused to shoot such a "caged" animal!

Another very difficult to crack down on unethical hunting method that is much more widely applied than the evil just described is what I call "put-and-take" hunting. Here the hunting outfitter buys a truckload of trophy male animals and delivers them to a large fenced area a few days before his first American hunting clients arrive. When the clients gets in the area, there is much chasing around of new males by the existing territory holders. While in this state of turmoil and with all the "fighting" going on it is very easy to get one of these newcommers, often right next to the enclosing fence! I'm very sorry to say so, but the trophies of many (but not all) American hunters that have been taken near the fence in South Africa were probably put-and=take trophies. In my book unethical. Unfortunately a very difficult practice to detect, and virtually no foreign hunter will be ably to judge by the amount of spoor in such an enclosure if the males are acting naturally or if there are a number of newly introduced males.

In summary: There CAN be some very ethical hunting within a fenced area, but fenced areas are often abused by (some, often the "bigger boys" who have prime stalls at the SCI and other hunting shows, their good status determined by the very good record book trophies that their clients regularly hunt) South African hunting outfitters who offer their clients what I consider an unethical hunt.

PS. Don't even think I'm ever going to provide names of any these culprit outfitters. I will say that I'm not one of them. Thats all.

Offline
Location: Appalachian Mtns
Joined: 03/22/2004
Posts: 23
How do you define FAIR CHASE HUNTING?

I read all the time of "The Great Hunt"
most of the posters forget to post they killed this creature in a preserve setting-be it a large black looking "wild" hog -ie from local stockyard-
or about a large black cat-that has been defanged/declawed and the great chase with dogs!!

baiting is low form of hunting- just review the hunting shows - ie write the hunters in them and ask if they hunt ever hunted over baited areas?

I watched a black bear hunt- the hunter is in his tree box sound asleep, the bear comes into the clearing and rattles the barrel chained to the tree- the hunter almost jumps out of his skin and fumbles with his rifle to shoot the bear-bet ya he forget to mention
that when he was braggin about the hunt!!

now I have said my piece-

now for the meat on your table -
need to read articles about how the animals
are transported, killed etc

transported in a trailer- no room, no water, no feed,no heat, no air conditioning,
some so animals are packed so tight that they freeze to the side of the trailer and are pulled free by chains tearing of legs/limbs- "still alive"

if you really want to read a disgusting tale
read about VEAL!

I have been in the livestock business all of my life- so maybe I am not to proud of the industry

check out the chickens-

just remember when it is said and done you settle up at the end of your road!

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Location: Pennsylvania
Joined: 10/28/2003
Posts: 1647
How do you define FAIR CHASE HUNTING?

Ridge......You are beeing awfully presumptuous!
I guess you never packed 50 pounds of dognuts strait up the mountain for 5 weeks strait and spent countless hours planning, finding, picking up, sorting out LEARNING what it takes to bait bears. I'll bet you don't know the feeling of coming around a bend in the trail only to look up and see a large black bear stairing at you from 15 yards away (with 50 poounds of sweats strapped to your back). You don't know the satisfaction at sundown on the last day of bear season with an unfilled tag......knowing you gave it everything you had....and had a blast.
Me thinks you have no experience with the things you speak of IMHO!

Offline
Location: Appalachian Mtns
Joined: 03/22/2004
Posts: 23
How do you define FAIR CHASE HUNTING?

hunter777

you are correct in the statement of "I have never baited" 'it is against the law in my home state' but I have scouted many an area to find the bear signs I have been looking for- and that did take some sweat and time to fulfill the chase of a bear-
but that is why they call it hunting

have a good day

Offline
Location: Pennsylvania
Joined: 10/28/2003
Posts: 1647
How do you define FAIR CHASE HUNTING?

Ridge....OK graceful reply! My friend.
I sometimes get defensive when "hunters" criticize other "hunters" for the way they do things. Lets face it....out there...somewhere (everywhere) there are people that are criticizing you and me for the fact that we hunt period. To them what we do is not OK in any way, shape or FORM. Luckily we can still do what we love to do, even if they can't understand why we love it.

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Location: Appalachian Mtns
Joined: 03/22/2004
Posts: 23
BAITING

I found this on another forum -thought is would work here
Big smile Big smile Big smile Big smile Big smile Big smile Big smile Big smile Big smile Big smile Big smile Big smile Big smile Big smile Big smile Big smile Big smile
I QUOTE-

I have been reading the post on the Outdoor Life Network and completely agree that it features way too many shows on Turkey Hunting and Deer Hunting from a stand over food plots & feeders.

I have a friend that has talked about putting together a TV Show on African Hunts. He definitely has the experience (African hunting experience), contacts, and resources to produce this show.

Right now, the concept is a hunting show featuring only Africa Hunting with the majority of the hunts being DG hunts (buffalo, elephant, leopard, lion, hippo, etc., etc.). Rather than having some goofy American hosting the show, they plan on having an actual PH (or multiple PH's) host the show. I think this part is a great concept since you have someone who actually has experience hunting the featured game.

Anyway, this potential show is a lot more than just talk and "pie in the sky". It has a real chance of coming together.

What do you guys think about this type of show?

What elements & suggestions do you have that could help make this a show that WE want to see and would keep your interest?

Would love to hear your input.

Thanks!

Tim

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http://www.hunt101.com/img/067574.jpg

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Location: Appalachian Mtns
Joined: 03/22/2004
Posts: 23
How do you define FAIR CHASE HUNTING?

this sounds about right!!

QUOTE:
Now for my opinion: Big smile Sell the experience, not the animal. selling animals by the pound (or inch) is not hunting. it is shopping. Scoring animals that are bred and raised to shoot is a business.. but it is not fair chase Evil! if the animal has no chance of dieing a natural death. plain and simple. Put a hunter in a pen with a hungry lion 8) , and with no firearms , now that may be fair chase!!! Then let that hunter decide how big the enclosure needs to be to call it fair chase.. Oops! Oops!
I have been charged by grizzlies twice. That was fair chase.
Jameister

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huntin 4 legged critters and eatin um

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Joined: 09/02/2004
Posts: 3
Cage hunting

I am a Danish (european) hunter and just posted a VERY angry post called "socalled hunting?!?". Before I posted I had'nt read this topic. All I can say is that I am glad that I can see that not all americans approve of this form of "hunting". I've seen several posts here describing real hunts( jshutah among others). And to the anthropologist (dpastordan). Its true that the "hunting" that the old royals of Europe conducted were messed up. Plain and simple. But dont go after the pygmies or the ancients. Their purpose of hunting is completely different from ours. They were (and still is) hunting in the most true essence. For their own survival. Hunt or starve...simple as that. Therefore they hunt in a way that yield the most meat. Understandeble when your life depends on it. As for the hunts you describe from Finland and Germany (also practiced in the same way in many other European countries). They both still have the element of chance involved. Ive been one som of these driven hunts, and belive me there is plenty of chance involved here. Alot of times the moose go between the dogs and beaters wich often walk with a mile or more between them because of the large areas in wich we hunt. The difference here is also that the trophy doesnt matter to many hunters in Finland for example. I'd bet alot of moose SCI records have been fed to the dogs after the hunts. Trophies are'nt a big thing to many european hunters. Some keep them as a reminder of the hunt (I do) but do not have them measured or put in any book . Wich is probably why all the records in the books are held by Americans. Big smile As for the night hunting. Theres a ton of work to do before you can go hunting at night. You have to scout the area over several weeks. Build your hide "the right place" and 9 times out of 10 the animnals dont show. So you start over. And we have'nt even begun to discuss shooting in pitch darkness. By the way night vision goggles are not allowed by law. Now the "hunters" on the preserves (or whatever you call them, they are still Zoos where you can bring a gun) may eat some of the canned exotic they just slaughtered, but that does'nt justify it. If it was the meat they were after they could go and buy a porkchop in the store. They are there to kill. Not hunt. There is no chance or effort from them involved. The only effort they have to put in is paying for an Addax or whatever endangered species they feel like and then go and shoot it. All in one or a couple of days. And no, I have'nt been in one of these cages. And I never will. If I want to hunt for Chamois I go to Swtizerland or Austria. If I want to hunt for Thar i go to the Himalayas, NOT New Zealand. And if I want to hunt for Whitetail I go to the U.S....see the point? Hunt the animals on their premices in their native habitat. And give them a sporting chance for christs sake! Let them run whereever they want to. If they catch your scent or whatever and run the animal wins and you go home. Not to the edge of the cage where the animal obviously has to stop and you can shoot it.

Chop away Yanks Wink

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