69 replies [Last post]
Offline
Location: Somewhere Up There
Joined: 01/06/2007
Posts: 217
Greatest cartridge ever.

I'm starting to become a 7mm 08 convert. Every time I take the thing out I get happier and happier with it. We'll see how it does on the piggies this year.

I've looked at the 8 by 57, it's certainly no dog. I'd like to have one. Same with the 338-06 which is too often over looked and the 338 Federal.

Soooo many choices....

Offline
Location: Seattle, WA
Joined: 08/29/2007
Posts: 190
Greatest cartridge ever.

It's not above the 308 when they are both fired out a 24inch barrels. The ballistics for the 308 are always done from a 22inch most of the time. So if you want to compare apples to apples the 308 can easily match or surpass the 30-06 loading data. You will gain at the very least 100fps out of the muzzle by adding 2 inches to the barrel.

Don Fischer's picture
Offline
Moderator
Location: Antelope, Ore
Joined: 03/24/2005
Posts: 3183
Greatest cartridge ever.
ELK-AHOLIC wrote:
It's not above the 308 when they are both fired out a 24inch barrels. The ballistics for the 308 are always done from a 22inch most of the time. So if you want to compare apples to apples the 308 can easily match or surpass the 30-06 loading data. You will gain at the very least 100fps out of the muzzle by adding 2 inches to the barrel.

Gaining 50 fps per inch of barrel is awfully optimistic. 30 fps maybe less depending on the barrel is closer. As much as I like the 308, I can see no way it can quite run with the 30-06. But the difference is so small, it really shouldn't matter except on paper.

Offline
Moderator
Location: Nova Scotia
Joined: 08/17/2002
Posts: 1762
Greatest cartridge ever.

Have to agree with Don and the others on this one. Case capacity is the difference if everything else is the same(primer, powder, bullet, barrel length). We get bogged down by these ballistic charts and marketing the ammo companies use. Apples to apples, the .308 isn't going to touch the 30-06 and the 300WSM isn't going to touch the 300win mag and the 300 SAUM isn't going to touch the 300 rum. The problem with comparing these cartridges with each other is that some powders are meant for some cartridges and not for others. The short cartridges tend to favor faster burning powders to get the velocities quick but using the same powder in a long case may not allow you to load to max capacity.

saskie's picture
Offline
Moderator
Location: West Carleton, Ottawa, Canada
Joined: 12/23/2002
Posts: 1264
Greatest cartridge ever.

First of all - how do you define "greatest"?

Production - Lada made a lot of cars, but they're crap

Accuracy - .22 rimfires can light the head of a match or put 10rds through the same hole, but would you seriously take a .22 big game hunting IF it was legal and if you could use even a 30/30 instead?

Versatility - yes a 12ga will kill anything that walks or slithers at close range, but even when tricked out and scoped I don't consider it a realistic option past 100yds, and absolutely not past 200.

My first choice for a new rifle was actually a 7mm-08, but in the end I opted for the .308 simply due to ammo availability. .308 is sold at nearly every mom and pop hardware store, but 7mm-08 can be hard to find if there's not a Wal-Mart or Canadian Tire handy.

I agree that recoil is "usually" more subjective that actual - the first time I fired my BLR-Lighteweight .308 I was shocked at how hard the "mild-mannered" .308 hit back.

I agree that using a cartridge matched to the rifle and calibre (say 150-165gr for a .308 and 180 for a 30/06) the difference in performance inside 200yds is negilgible.

I agree that its really hard to argue against the versatility of the 30/06.

But I'm not voting for any them...or the .270...or the .22...or the 12ga...and it will be a cold day in you-know-where before I say anything nice about a magnum.

I vote for the .303 British (although admittedly this is heavily influenced by the rifles that are chambered for it, and to be fair the question was best "cartridge" - and because I'm feeling a little argumentative today neener! ).

The rifles are damn-near indestructible. My first rifle, which was passed down to my brother is Lee Enfield MkV Jungle Carbine, manufactured at Her (or maybe His - not sure what year Liz took over) Majesty's Armoury in 1957.

It has taken every big-game animal in N America and most, (if not all) in Africa.

Its dominance at the Commonwealth Bisley competitions (service rifle, prone-unsupported, open sights at 1000yds) has proven it as a highly accurate long-ranged calibre.

Others are more accurate. Others have more punch. Others are faster handling...find me one that is "very good" in all those categories and can be bought for less than $200.00.

Offline
Location: Minnesota
Joined: 11/26/2007
Posts: 74
Greatest cartridge ever.

I'm not a rifle/cartridge guy, but what about the cartridge that was made for a colt revolver and also the Henry rifle? (44-40?, someone has to help me on this point) That round is credited with "winning the west", if i am not mistaken. Allowed people the flexibility to buy one box of ammo, and use rifle or pistol. Granted... alot of that rounds success was based on the firearms that went around it, but you have to give it a nod. Don't you? How many other cartridges were that functional?

Offline
Moderator
Location: Nova Scotia
Joined: 08/17/2002
Posts: 1762
Greatest cartridge ever.
saskie wrote:
First of all - how do you define "greatest"?

Production - Lada made a lot of cars, but they're crap

Accuracy - .22 rimfires can light the head of a match or put 10rds through the same hole, but would you seriously take a .22 big game hunting IF it was legal and if you could use even a 30/30 instead?

Versatility - yes a 12ga will kill anything that walks or slithers at close range, but even when tricked out and scoped I don't consider it a realistic option past 100yds, and absolutely not past 200.

My first choice for a new rifle was actually a 7mm-08, but in the end I opted for the .308 simply due to ammo availability. .308 is sold at nearly every mom and pop hardware store, but 7mm-08 can be hard to find if there's not a Wal-Mart or Canadian Tire handy.

I agree that recoil is "usually" more subjective that actual - the first time I fired my BLR-Lighteweight .308 I was shocked at how hard the "mild-mannered" .308 hit back.

I agree that using a cartridge matched to the rifle and calibre (say 150-165gr for a .308 and 180 for a 30/06) the difference in performance inside 200yds is negilgible.

I agree that its really hard to argue against the versatility of the 30/06.

But I'm not voting for any them...or the .270...or the .22...or the 12ga...and it will be a cold day in you-know-where before I say anything nice about a magnum.

I vote for the .303 British (although admittedly this is heavily influenced by the rifles that are chambered for it, and to be fair the question was best "cartridge" - and because I'm feeling a little argumentative today neener! ).

The rifles are damn-near indestructible. My first rifle, which was passed down to my brother is Lee Enfield MkV Jungle Carbine, manufactured at Her (or maybe His - not sure what year Liz took over) Majesty's Armoury in 1957.

It has taken every big-game animal in N America and most, (if not all) in Africa.

Its dominance at the Commonwealth Bisley competitions (service rifle, prone-unsupported, open sights at 1000yds) has proven it as a highly accurate long-ranged calibre.

Others are more accurate. Others have more punch. Others are faster handling...find me one that is "very good" in all those categories and can be bought for less than $200.00.

12 ga slug is travelling over 1300ft/sec @200 yds and hitting 1200 foot pounds so why not use it at 200yds? The .303brit might have at most 500fps advantage with a 180 g. bullet compared to a 300+g. bullet.

BTW, I think you got your manufacturing date mixed up on your jungle carbine(no.5 Mk.1). They ended production in 1947.

I would have thought the 7.62x51(.308win) would be more dominant at the Bisley comp. than the 303. Not saying it isn't accurate but I didn't think it was that accurate.

Offline
Location: Seattle, WA
Joined: 08/29/2007
Posts: 190
Greatest cartridge ever.

Saying the 308 isn't going to "touch" the 30-06 is gross exaggeration it's within 100 to 150 fps with the 180gr bullets and can duplicate anything the 30-06 can do with bullets of 150gr's and with the 308 being fired out of a 24 inch barrel it will be even closer yet, you cant tell me any animal will know the difference between the .308 or the 30-06, they are simply too close to say that the 30-06 blows it away. Now the 7mm Rem mag and the 300 RUM blow both of those two away that's a legitimate statement.

saskie's picture
Offline
Moderator
Location: West Carleton, Ottawa, Canada
Joined: 12/23/2002
Posts: 1264
Greatest cartridge ever.
ChesterGolf wrote:
BTW, I think you got your manufacturing date mixed up on your jungle carbine(no.5 Mk.1). They ended production in 1947.

I would have thought the 7.62x51(.308win) would be more dominant at the Bisley comp. than the 303. Not saying it isn't accurate but I didn't think it was that accurate.

The 7.62 has outdone the .303 since it was introduced, but Bisley shows the .303 does shoot well at long range.

Not sure about the dates - I'll double check when I'm home in Nov as I'll be hunting with it again for the first time since I left home. Of all the Lee Enfield model descriptions I've read, the Mk5 carbine seemed the most accurate description of my rifle so I always assumed that's what it was.

Offline
Moderator
Location: Nova Scotia
Joined: 08/17/2002
Posts: 1762
Greatest cartridge ever.
ELK-AHOLIC wrote:
Saying the 308 isn't going to "touch" the 30-06 is gross exaggeration it's within 100 to 150 fps with the 180gr bullets and can duplicate anything the 30-06 can do with bullets of 150gr's and with the 308 being fired out of a 24 inch barrel it will be even closer yet, you cant tell me any animal will know the difference between the .308 or the 30-06, they are simply too close to say that the 30-06 blows it away. Now the 7mm Rem mag and the 300 RUM blow both of those two away that's a legitimate statement.

From "remington shoot" ballistic program: based on 24" barrel

.308 150 gr.soft point core-lokt 2820fps
30-06 150gr. soft point core-lokt 2910fps

.308 165 gr. soft-point boat-tail 2700fps
30-06 165gr. soft-point boat-tail 2800fps

.308 165gr. premier accuTip boat-tail 2700fps
30-06 165gr. premier accuTip boat-tail 2800fps

.308 180gr. pointed soft point core-lokt 2620fps
30-06 180gr. pointed soft point core-lokt 2700fps

These bullets were used because they were the only exact matches the program used but it is a good sample of what you will see across the board with other ammo with all things being equal. When I said it wouldn't touch the 30-06, I didn't mean to infer that the 30-06 blew the 308 out of the water but it will always keep a steady lead on it albeit a small one around 100fps. To be fair, the only thing that we can verify as the same is the bullets. There is no way to tell if the powder or primers are the same in each caliber.

Related Forum Threads You Might Like

ThreadThread StarterRepliesLast Updated
300 WSM: The Greatest North American Cartridge Ever?Highflyer2407/16/2008 17:58 pm
Best .280 cartridge for ElkMaestroHC602/13/2008 05:28 am
Factory cartridge length?Browning208/18/2013 01:44 am
cheap varmint cartridge for 25-06robertsgoalie01307/05/2010 15:45 pm
7mm 08 Anyone?Highflyer1202/24/2009 11:29 am