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Location: Seattle, WA
Joined: 08/29/2007
Posts: 190
Greatest cartridge ever.

The link below is a recoil table it tells you the amount of force a rifle hits your shoulder with. To me it's a stupid question to ask what cartridge kicks less we all know the 308 performs almost identical to the 30-06 with less recoil.

http://www.chuckhawks.com/recoil_table.htm

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Location: Somewhere Up There
Joined: 01/06/2007
Posts: 217
Greatest cartridge ever.

TN Deer Guy: You mean the 308 (UP TO THE 165 GRAIN BULLET WEIGHT) doesn't perform nearly as well as the 30.06 with less recoil? All of the recoil calculators are wrong? All of the chronos and all of the data tables are wrong?
We are all illogical and don't know what we are talking about? I've been called a lot of things but illogical isn't usually one of them.

SInce we have a clarity problem here let me repeat my point: UP TO THE 165 Grain bullet weight the 308 kicks less and performs as well. You are reading far more into my statement than is there. If a person decides they need 180 grain bullets then the 30.06 does better. The point of the 308 is that one can take any game with it with bullet weights up to and including 165 grain bullets with no performance loss but less recoil than the 30.06.

A few more times for clarity: up to 165 grain bullet weight, up to 165 grain bullet weight, up to 165 grain bullet weight, up to 165 grain bullet weight,up to 165 grain bullet weight, up to 165 grain bullet weight, up to 165 grain bullet weight...

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Location: Seattle, WA
Joined: 08/29/2007
Posts: 190
Greatest cartridge ever.

Even over 165gr up to 180gr the 308 performs Identical to the 30-06. I have a ballistic table in front of me right now that shows the .308 with a 180gr bullets going 2740 fps and a 30-06 with a 180gr bullet at 2700 fps. The .308 is more efficient plain and simple. It can do anything the 30-06 can do with less recoil and in a short action rifle.

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Location: California
Joined: 09/06/2008
Posts: 1071
Greatest cartridge ever.
ELK-AHOLIC wrote:
Even over 165gr up to 180gr the 308 performs Identical to the 30-06. I have a ballistic table in front of me right now that shows the .308 with a 180gr bullets going 2740 fps and a 30-06 with a 180gr bullet at 2700 fps. The .308 is more efficient plain and simple. It can do anything the 30-06 can do with less recoil and in a short action rifle.

Nope. Sorry but that wont wash. I agree with you and the others here that up to about 165 gr both cartriges are about equal (give or take) and there is somewhat less recoil in the 308. Upwards of 165 the greater case capacity in the 06 allows it to perform better and be more versatile than the shorter case. It's simple math at this point .

tim
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Location: north idaho
Joined: 06/11/2004
Posts: 601
Greatest cartridge ever.

I am just going to throw this out there.

would the new one and only cartridge be the .300wsm?

the ballistics look real good for a one gun for all of north america.

any one else thinking this way?

tim

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Location: Seattle, WA
Joined: 08/29/2007
Posts: 190
Greatest cartridge ever.

I'm just going to post a link that shows the 180gr selection can go either to the 30-06 or the .308 making them equal in my mind. Now, when you get PAST 180grs the edge goes to the 30-06 but up to 180gr they are equal and you can achieve velocities of up to 2750fps easily in both. Now as far as your math is concerned a larger case does not mean more power, hence the adoption of the WSM and SAUM cartridges that burn less powder and have less case capacity than the older standard or magnum rounds they mimic but produce higher velocities. Compare the 270 Win to the 270WSM. The WSM clearly has less capacity for powder but the case is fatter allowing more powder to burn on ignition giving it more velocity and 15% more energy down range. It's not math it's physics, I also have plenty of resources available online to post that shows the two are totally interchangeable up to 180gr's the 30-06 tables use a 24inch barrel and the .308 uses a 22 inch. What it boils down to is that I'm not picking a fight with anyone about what is the best cartridge around, I don't even own a 30-06 but I do have a nice FAL in 308. For my hunting and shooting needs I don't go with much of anything under 3100fps for Deer,Elk and so on, I'm big into shooting Dogs out in Wyoming and I love flat cartridges like the 22-250 and 204, Come to think of it I only own 3 rifles that shoot under 3000fps those are a 444 Marlin and a Old 303 Jungle Carbine and a Yugo AK. I never saw the need to go buy a 30-06 when I own 7mm Mags and 300 Mags and my 257 Wby Mag. Not that there is anything wrong with the 30-06 I just don't own one.

http://www.shootingtimes.com/ballistics/308_winchester.html

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Location: Somewhere Up There
Joined: 01/06/2007
Posts: 217
Greatest cartridge ever.

I'm a big fan of the 300 wsm. It's a very accurate and efficient round. Still, it is stiff in the recoil department (but not out of control). For the larger stuff (especially in places where grizzly bears lurk) I think it's one of the best.

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Location: Antelope, Ore
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Greatest cartridge ever.

You would think there is no doubt that the 30-06 is going to get mentioned most. For good reason too. It will handle most anything most of us will hunt and has spawned a number of excellent cartridges to boot. The 308 is close behind for the same reason's, I'd take the 308 myself, in a rifle with a 20" barrel it's really wonderful. It's case is generally thought to be inherently more accurate but I'm not so sure of that. Rather I think that because of the way rifles can be made for it and the bit less recoil, the accuracy people chose it. If you go to long range competation the 30-06 case wins.

Even thought, there's a couple more cartridges that do deserve mention. The 6.5x55 works all out of portion to it's size. I believe that is for two reasons. First it does have a really good selection of bullet's for hunting and it is easy to shoot, for most anyone.

The other would be the 7x57. It was the 7x57 shooting holes in Americans in the Spanish Amweican War that convinced the us they needed something better than the 30-40. Entered the 30-03 with it's big slkow heavy bullet which didn';t work all that well. In 1906 it waqs changed to 30-06 by replaqcing the 220gr bullet with a 150gr bullet. Then we started shooting little holes in the enemy. The 7x57 has been everywhere and taken everything from Dik-Dik to elephants. It spawned the 5.6x57, 257 Robert's and the 6.5x57. Maybe I should make a case for it's dad, the 8x57. But the 8x57 has always been short on bullets, it's a deer cartridge.

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Location: Tennessee
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Greatest cartridge ever.
Don Fischer wrote:
You would think there is no doubt that the 30-06 is going to get mentioned most. For good reason too. It will handle most anything most of us will hunt and has spawned a number of excellent cartridges to boot. The 308 is close behind for the same reason's, I'd take the 308 myself, in a rifle with a 20" barrel it's really wonderful. It's case is generally thought to be inherently more accurate but I'm not so sure of that. Rather I think that because of the way rifles can be made for it and the bit less recoil, the accuracy people chose it. If you go to long range competation the 30-06 case wins.

Even thought, there's a couple more cartridges that do deserve mention. The 6.5x55 works all out of portion to it's size. I believe that is for two reasons. First it does have a really good selection of bullet's for hunting and it is easy to shoot, for most anyone.

The other would be the 7x57. It was the 7x57 shooting holes in Americans in the Spanish Ameican War that convinced the us they needed something better than the 30-40. Entered the 30-03 with it's big slow heavy bullet which didn';t work all that well. In 1906 it was changed to 30-06 by replaqcing the 220gr bullet with a 150gr bullet. Then we started shooting little holes in the enemy. The 7x57 has been everywhere and taken everything from Dik-Dik to elephants. It spawned the 5.6x57, 257 Robert's and the 6.5x57. Maybe I should make a case for it's dad, the 8x57. But the 8x57 has always been short on bullets, it's a deer cartridge.

All excellent points. I would, however, give the 8x57 a tad more credit. In loads, other than our silly ammo companies make (in deference to some idiot sticking the newer .323 bullet in a REALLY old .318 bore they choose to load it just above .32 Win Spcl loads) it's a pretty stout round. With imported loads and loads from such respected American companies as Stars and Stripes Ammo , Conley and HSM, it will pretty much do anything the '06 will do. And there are lots of 195-200gr loads around if one looks. The one I shoot in my two 8x57s is a 196grSP bullet at 2592 FPS by Sellier & Bellot. With the popularity of the new .325 WSM we now have 200gr AB, 200gr TSX and 200gr NP bullets available for the 8x57 as well .

http://www.cpcartridge.com/8mmmauser-P.htm

http://www.chuckhawks.com/forgotten_8x57.htm

http://www.chuckhawks.com/remarkable_trio.htm

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Greatest cartridge ever.
BunnySlayer wrote:
ELK-AHOLIC wrote:
Even over 165gr up to 180gr the 308 performs Identical to the 30-06. I have a ballistic table in front of me right now that shows the .308 with a 180gr bullets going 2740 fps and a 30-06 with a 180gr bullet at 2700 fps. The .308 is more efficient plain and simple. It can do anything the 30-06 can do with less recoil and in a short action rifle.

Nope. Sorry but that wont wash. I agree with you and the others here that up to about 165 gr both cartriges are about equal (give or take) and there is somewhat less recoil in the 308. Upwards of 165 the greater case capacity in the 06 allows it to perform better and be more versatile than the shorter case. It's simple math at this point .

Mr. BunnySlayer,
You are looking at the Fed HE(high energy) or Hornady LM(light mag) 180gr load for the .308, vs a standard 180gr load for the 30/06. If you'd like to compare apples to apples, the HE & LM 180gr loads in the 30/06 show 2880 FPS, again as in all other comparable loads, above what a .308's velocity is.

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