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WesternHunter's picture
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Greatest cartridge ever.

Well yeah, that's the beauty of it. It doesn't need to be necked up or down, and you're right Don, it has not spawned any other shell. All that and it's still the most versatile. Ask 10 people if they could take just one firearm with them anywhere they were going, what firearm would it be. 9 of the 10 people would say a 12 gauge shotgun Thumbs up Thumbs up

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Greatest cartridge ever.
Don Fischer wrote:
Now wait a minute. Cartridges are metallic, shotgun ammo is called shells. Generally they are plastic, might be some paper sitll around and I have seen metal shot shell cases.

Going against the 12ga would be that it hasn't spawned even one off spring! What do you neck it up or down to? Even the brass shell's haven't been necked up or down to my knowledge.

You guy's!!!

Where does it say a cartridge has to be metallic? It is called a shell and has a hull but as a whole it is still a cartridge. As far as spawning anything from it look as the thread about the 700 HE and 12ga. FH http://www.biggamehunt.net/node/22352 It doesn't need to be necked down because it has 12 ga. slugs all the way down to tiny shot.

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Greatest cartridge ever.

I think the 7mm Remington Mag is another great choice for the best ever it shoots super flat and can take any game North America throws at it. I grew up shooting a model 700 BDL that my dad got in the mid 60's I own three rifles of my own today that are chambered for that cartridge and everything I have ever shot with the 7mm Mag has gone down in a hurry. Yes

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Greatest cartridge ever.

Bless you Elkahlic, got me out of the corner. Gettin' a bit hot in there! Big smile I don't think I'd say the 7mm mag but rather the parent case, the 458 Win Mag. Say 458 and your talking Africa and stopping gun. But then the case has been taken to 338 Win, 300 Win, 7mm Rem, 264 Win. the 458 too.

Once again thanks for the open door, CG was getting a good bite out of an old butt without to many bites left! Yes

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Greatest cartridge ever.
Tndeerhunter wrote:
Well, I've used a bunch of calibers to collect venison, all worked well (obviously). But, one thing I learned is that there's no free ride. If you want to shoot a .308 cal 165 gr bullet 2700 fps from an 8lb rifle, it doesn't matter if it's a .308, 30/06 or .300WM, it will recoil the same. The idea that one is better, recoil-wise, when looking at like performance simply isn't correct, IMO.

Brick Wall,)

Rubbish. More powder burn, more recoil. If you work the median 165 / 168 grain numbers for each of these successively you get an average of 4 foot pounds increase in recoil for each caliber for an 8 pound rifle. In other words, the 308 kicks in at approximately 14 foot pounds, the 30.06 at 18 foot pounds, and the 300 wm at 22 foot pounds.

Maybe I'm missing the pint of this post? But all things being equal, the efficient powder usage of the 308 family simply results in less recoil. Sure, you can tame down recoil with better fitting stocks, etc. but physics is physics: the less powder you burn, the less recoil you get. And ironically, once you past a certain but of powder capacity the less velocity you get but with the due increase in recoil.

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Greatest cartridge ever.

[ But, it's simply foolish, IMO, to say flatly that it shoots as fast and recoils less Shame on You!

Brick Wall,)

Does your opinion include a look at the real numbers? There is simply no significant difference in the true velocities of the 308 and the 30.06 (up to 165 grain bullet weight) even though the 308 burns less powder. Less powder equals less recoil and there is no getting around it. There are psycholgical differences stemming from history, emotional attachment, and lack of knowledge, but there are no real performance differences. Simply foolish is arguing with hard numbers.

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Don Fischer wrote:
Bless you Elkahlic, got me out of the corner. Gettin' a bit hot in there! Big smile I don't think I'd say the 7mm mag but rather the parent case, the 458 Win Mag. Say 458 and your talking Africa and stopping gun. But then the case has been taken to 338 Win, 300 Win, 7mm Rem, 264 Win. the 458 too.

Once again thanks for the open door, CG was getting a good bite out of an old butt without to many bites left! Yes

It's not often we get you in the corner Don. You didn't think we would let you walk away did you? neener! If it makes you feel better, in metallic cartridges( neener! ) I think the .308 family of cartridges offer the most efficient solutions.

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Greatest cartridge ever.
Highflyer wrote:
[ But, it's simply foolish, IMO, to say flatly that it shoots as fast and recoils less Shame on You!

Brick Wall,)

Does your opinion include a look at the real numbers? There is simply no significant difference in the true velocities of the 308 and the 30.06 (up to 165 grain bullet weight) even though the 308 burns less powder. Less powder equals less recoil and there is no getting around it. There are psycholgical differences stemming from history, emotional attachment, and lack of knowledge, but there are no real performance differences. Simply foolish is arguing with hard numbers.

The Reply:

Of course I have numbers to back up my claims, I don't speak in generalities.

Here's the numbers from the Shooter's Bible 99th Edition:

150gr .308 muzzle vel/ 2820 *********** muzzle energy/2650

165gr .308 muzzle vel/2700 *********** muzzle energy/2670

180gr .308 muzzle vel/2620 *********** muzzle energy/2745

**********************************************************************
150gr 30/06 muzzle vel/2900 ********** muzzle energy/2770

165gr 30/06 muzzle vel/2800 ********** muzzle energy/2770

180gr 30/06 muzzle vel/2700 ********** muzzle energy/2915

The numbers show us a 80-100 fps increase across the board for the '06 over the .308. It also shows that an '06 pushes a 180gr bullet to the SAME velocity as the .308 pushes a 165 grainer. These differences are significant enough to be felt in like rifles, period.

Are they enough to make a significant difference in game harvest? Not in my opinion. I use the 30/06, .308, .280 and .270 interchangeably and think the only real difference in killing power at typical ranges (up to 350yds or so) would likely be in the shooter's mind, not truly noticeable on any game animal.

However, this was not the issue at hand. The issue was if there was a difference in felt recoil and I agree there absolutely is in typical loads with the same bullet weights in like rifles. BUT, it is simply because of the difference in performance, period. The '06 performs slightly better, across the board and thus the recoil is also slightly more.

************** All numbers shown are representative loads, from all three of the biggest ammo loaders, Federal, Remington and Winchester. The information came from pages 475-477 in the 99th edition of Shooters Bible published in 2007, Stoeger Publishing Co.*******************

Any hard numbers to argue these facts?? I think not as these are the facts. Did someone mention "lack of knowledge?"
Brick Wall,) Brick Wall,) Brick Wall,)[/b]

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Huh??? I'm seeing an argument for a point that was never in contention am I not? What am I missing here? Now I'm really confused.

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Highflyer wrote:
Huh??? I'm seeing an argument for a point that was never in contention am I not? What am I missing here? Now I'm really confused.

Here's your QUOTE!!!!Does your opinion include a look at the real numbers? There is simply no significant difference in the true velocities of the 308 and the 30.06 (up to 165 grain bullet weight) even though the 308 burns less powder. Less powder equals less recoil and there is no getting around it. There are psycholgical differences stemming from history, emotional attachment, and lack of knowledge, but there are no real performance differences. Simply foolish is arguing with hard numbers.

Your confused quote!

My Answer:
Now, perhaps you might simply read my previous posting to see what my answer is/was/is/will be!!

You claim that the .308 matches the 30/06 and has less recoil. Both points are false. Did you read the post?? The numbers show your supposition to be false, plain and simple. If you have a certain opinion, fine. Simply do not claim it's based on anything logical and/or factual!

Can you read the information shown? (Sorry. the facts presented). Your conjecture and illogical reasoning(?) make for difficult intelligent discussion, sorry. I'm done arguing with someone who knows nothing of what they preach.

Shock! Brick Wall,) Brick Wall,) Brick Wall,) Brick Wall,) Brick Wall,) Brick Wall,) Brick Wall,) Brick Wall,) Brick Wall,) Brick Wall,) Brick Wall,)

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