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A grand jury in the District has issued subpoenas,

Actually there were no Democratic prosecutors fired to my knowledge, I think they were all repubs. It's standard for all prosecutors to hand in their resignations at the beginning of a new admin and rehires usually break on party lines. Federal Prosecutors often go on to become judges.

It seems as if the civil suit is being defended by different attourneys than the criminal one as of last week. The other case of the gov of Alabama seems to be reaching back into the White house and collusion between prosecutors in Alabama and the political side of things (Rove) in the White house. I think it was the Siegelman/Wecht prosecutions more than anything else that caused Rove to resign. Bear in mind he knows better than anyone where and what bodies are burried.

On Racism.

It's a common misconception amongst racists or others who have never thought about the issue to assume racism means criticism of anyone who is a minority. Another misconception is that identity politics will cause people to vote for someone based solely on their race or gender. Sarah Palin is a perfect example of what a huge mistake these assumptions can be. I sure didn't see much of a break for her amongst the women's vote.

Racism is criticism based on race, or continual mention of the race of a person so to stress the otherness of them. What makes me laugh is that racial epithets are no longer allowed in polite society. People are forced to tie themselves up in linguistic knots to get the idea across with the proper praportions of racism or hate. Just substitute the word Muslim or Terrorist for the N word and it'll work.

Terrorist I especially like. Terrorist roughly means anyone I disagree with to such an extent that I feel they are subhuman and it's not a sin to kill them. No need for them to fly bomb laden airplanes, just disagree with you. Extra points for dark skin or Middle Eastern background.

Research tells us racism is no where near as prevalent amongst people the younger they are. With many teenagers today being Hispanic has about as much cachet as being say, Irish American. It's not an issue. The hold outs are older people but they will all soon be dead. Of course racism does cross generational lines but kids aren't dumb. All it takes is a few silent looks or changed freindships to realize that the racism thing is just not cool.

Change is happening

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Joined: 07/29/2008
Posts: 723
A grand jury in the District has issued subpoenas,

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/12/11/AR200812...
Most viewed article in Washington Post yesterday.

It's hard for me to say which issue will end up being the one to land someone behind bars, the big deal is that it happen after the 20th so we don't have any more pardons like Iran Contra or Watergate. I'd like to see the guy at the top do some time, he's in good shape, five years should wise him up some and set an example. Rumsfeld should go too, guy is too smart by half, anyone with those brains knows what they are doing, Cheney is living his karma.

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Location: California
Joined: 09/06/2008
Posts: 1071
A grand jury in the District has issued subpoenas,

Laugh Laugh Laugh Laugh Even the left thinks this nuts a nut..

SoCoKHntr's picture
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Location: Pueblo Colorado
Joined: 12/18/2006
Posts: 1751
A grand jury in the District has issued subpoenas,
civetcat wrote:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/12/11/AR2008121101969.html?nav=hcmodule
Most viewed article in Washington Post yesterday.

It's hard for me to say which issue will end up being the one to land someone behind bars, the big deal is that it happen after the 20th so we don't have any more pardons like Iran Contra or Watergate. I'd like to see the guy at the top do some time, he's in good shape, five years should wise him up some and set an example. Rumsfeld should go too, guy is too smart by half, anyone with those brains knows what they are doing, Cheney is living his karma.

I have always felt it was the most supreme chicken $!@t that the torture agenda was pushed from the top down and when the pictures leaked the troopers on the bottom doing the dirty work were hung out to twist in the wind. They were following the agenda set by the chickenhawks at the top. Pathetic!

expatriate's picture
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Location: Arizona
Joined: 10/26/2002
Posts: 3206
A grand jury in the District has issued subpoenas,

I'm not sure what you're talking about here, but if you're talking about Abu Ghraib you're off base. The media fed the idea that the press broke the case open by leaking the photos, which just isn't true. The Army heard about it back in '03 and launched a criminal investigation on its own. The photos were part of the resulting report and were leaked as the report was making its way through channels toward legal proceedings. In other words, the people at the top found out about it and took action well before the press got hold of it. The abuses at Abu Ghraib had been put to a stop by the Army long before the photos leaked.

Have you ever read the Taguba report? The problem was utter failure of leadership starting at the NCO level. They weren't authorized to treat prisoners that way, and ineffective leadership allowed a couple sadistic people to hijack the culture. The Taguba report chronicles gross leadership failures all the way up to the Brigadier General level.

The bottom line is that nobody was thrown under the bus when the photos leaked -- the Army found the problem on its own and was well on its way to fixing it when the press got involved. The press hysteria was in reaction to the Taguba report, not the other way around.

SoCoKHntr's picture
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Location: Pueblo Colorado
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A grand jury in the District has issued subpoenas,

Expat, another one we'll have to agree to disagree on. I fully, without any doubt, believe the full on use of torture on any affirmed or suspected 'insurgents' or 'terrorists' was fully thought up and filtered down by bush, Rummy, Cheney, to commanders and then down to the low level troopers who were following an agenda not set by them.

You mentioned a report, what about this testimony:

"Read the words of Lt. Gen. Antonio M. Taguba, who investigated the Abu Ghraib scandal for the Pentagon. "There is no longer any doubt as to whether the current administration has committed war crimes," he concluded. "The only question that remains to be answered is whether those who ordered the use of torture will be held to account."

Here's a good link regarding Matthew Alexander, a former special intelligence operations officer, who states how ineffective torture is:

http://www.military.com/news/article/exinterrogator-torture-doesnt--work...

This was all part of the Bush Neocon fantasy dreamed up and carried out by arm chair non warriors bush, pearl, wolfowitz, cheney, rummy. Where riding high on this Countries desire for retribution on the perpetrators of 9/11 mislead us into a war that wasn't justified, Iraq, which after the initial invasion they executed ineptly and for which they thought any action whether moral or immoral would not have any consequence.

Their thinking was 'The gloves are off!," and once we were greeted as liberators and democracy sprang up like a flower no one would worry about torture or a lack of WMD's or anything else.

I do understand you see it differently and again, we'll have to disagree.

expatriate's picture
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Location: Arizona
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A grand jury in the District has issued subpoenas,

Do you have a source for the Taguba quote? I'm curious, because if the administration ordered the use of torture at Abu Ghraib, I have to wonder why the Army initiated a criminal investigation when it heard about it. Did Bush skip the entire Army chain of command to call the MP brigade commander and tell her to do it?

The effectiveness of torture is debatable. But let me ask you this: it's 2 PM -- terrorists are holding your wife and kids and have said that at sundown they're going to behead them and broadcast the video on Al Jazeera. You have a guy in custody that knows where they are but doesn't want to talk. What are you willing to do to change his mind?

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Joined: 07/29/2008
Posts: 723
A grand jury in the District has issued subpoenas,
Quote:
have to wonder why the Army initiated a criminal investigation

Because for the most part the army operates by the book, they're the good guys, they're the leakers. Throughout the whole thing time after time honest patriotic people in the army have stepped forward and sacrificed their careers.

Rummy, Bush and Cheney tried to create legal cover after the fact via Gonzo and Chao.

Knowing human nature I can't say I would have done any better if placed in the same situation as those troops at the prison. I can hope that I would but there's no way to tell, most of us do as they did.

expatriate's picture
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Location: Arizona
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A grand jury in the District has issued subpoenas,

Let's look at what those "patriotic people" (as you call them) did.

First of all, we can look at what they DIDN'T do. They didn't identify anything that wasn't already under investigation, didn't change the corrective actions, and didn't make a difference in who got put in jail.

What they DID do was violate federal law by illegally releasing classified documents to the press. In this case, it was classified "secret", which means its release would cause serious damage to the national security of the United States.

In response, the US suffered substantial political damage in the Arab world. Moreover, a lot of people (both American and Iraqi) died as a result of violence incited by anger over the photos, stoked by Islamists exploiting the issue to generate outrage. Nick Berg's beheading was a direct result of that leak.

Personally, I don't consider that to be patriotic. Patriotic would be identifying the people involved and holding them accountable -- but doing it in such a way that doesn't aid the enemy. The people who leaked those photos have a lot of blood on their hands because they wanted to grind a political axe more than they wanted to fix the problem. You're assuming these people were in the Army, but I highly doubt it.

SoCoKHntr's picture
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Location: Pueblo Colorado
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A grand jury in the District has issued subpoenas,
expatriate wrote:
Do you have a source for the Taguba quote? I'm curious, because if the administration ordered the use of torture at Abu Ghraib, I have to wonder why the Army initiated a criminal investigation when it heard about it. Did Bush skip the entire Army chain of command to call the MP brigade commander and tell her to do it?

The effectiveness of torture is debatable. But let me ask you this: it's 2 PM -- terrorists are holding your wife and kids and have said that at sundown they're going to behead them and broadcast the video on Al Jazeera. You have a guy in custody that knows where they are but doesn't want to talk. What are you willing to do to change his mind?

The great 24 debate (you know that 'awesome' TV show) where seconds are ticking away and you've got to torture the hell out of the terrorist to save the world, or your family, wife, insert any loved one.

You know ex, in a case like that maybe I would torture someone if a loved ones life hung in the balance. But, and the big BUT, is this rarely if ever happened in the real world. In Afghanistan and Iraq many suspected insurgents were and are rounded up in sweeps and processed through intell centers where the torture occurred. Some were beaten so severely they died others released. These weren't cases of the clock is ticking and this here guy knows the location of the super secret atomic bomb. It was standard operating procedure to try and get a little info on insurgent activities in the area.

One thing is for sure, if a Iraqi or Afghani, wasn't an insurgent going in he probably damn sure was if he lived and got out.

You know the same thing always happens in long drawn out insurgencies. You have the insurgents on one side, the US forces on the other, and the civilians getting pounded by both in the middle. I've read of some ugly horror stories happening to young fourteen fifteen year old boys who got cycled through Abu Ghraib. Again, imagine they didn't hold any ill will towards the US presence up to that point. Don't ya think that'd change after that?

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