OK, now I'm a bit confused and I need to show my ignorance a little. The thread comparing the .270 Win to the .280 Rem stated that the .270 Win, with factory ammo, kicks more than the .280 Rem with factory loads. For sake of discussion let's assume that both guns weight the same and are both shooting a 140 grain bullet. Comparing ballistics charts from various manufacturers and using plain jane ammo, not the premium or HE stuff, I see that the .280 Rem has a slightly higher energy at the muzzle. I make the assumption that it either has a tad bit more powder or its case design is a tad bit more efficient. Would the .270 have more felt recoil? Remember that the rifles weight the same and the projectiles weight the same. The .280 is going a teeny bit faster (more kinetic energy) so shouldn't the felt recoil be a teeny bit higher? Newton says it's getting it's velocity from somewhere (the weight of the gun and your shoulder). I am splitting hairs here because I think the cartridges are almost the same. Help me understand this. Once I understand this and the whole uphill/downhill holdover/under thing I've got this shooting thing licked.