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Location: Montana
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Elk Hunt with 25-06?
elkkill06 wrote:
Hey Romey I know and understand where you are coming from on this, but not every animal is the same and reacts the same when hit and certainally not every load or bullet reacts the same. I shoot all the time and right now I shoot 7MM RUM I truley love this weapon. I use to shoot a 7MM Mag in the Brownig A-bolt Meddallion. In 2004 I had a 360 inch bull at 398 yards and shot him quartering towards me, it hit him so hard it knocked him completely over backwards. There was a cloud of dust that came off that bull that looked like a bomb went off. I started heading over to the bull when I noticed the bull was laying there with his head up, all of a sudden the bull jumped up and ran off. It was right before dark, so had started looking for him the next day. Three days later I caught up with this bull and put him down for good. The reason I am telling you this story is that the bullet hit the bull right in front of the shoulder at the base of the neck, perfect shot at that angle, the bad thing is the bullet went down the side of the outside of the bulls ribs under the shoulder. It had enough energy to completely knock the bull off his feet, but the bullet did not go the direction it should have gone. I also seen a guy shoot a small spike buck at 90 yards with a 300 Wheatherby Mag with a 220 gr bullet and not even go completely through the little bucks spine. I have also seen a giant 387 bull that was estamated by the CDOW to be 1200 pounds on the hoof go straight down when shot with a 30-06 with a 150gr bullet drop right in his tracks at 326 yards being hit the same way I had shot that big 360 bull. No matter how much wind you keep blowing there are a lot of poeple out there that if they start flinching at the range they WILL flinch in the field. I personnally have put over 1350 rounds through my 7MM RUM since I bought it in 2006 and 1000's of rounds through my 22-250 and practice shots out past 850 yards. Most of your regular hunters go out shoot there gun 5 or 6 times to make sure there gun is on and go hunting. I have had the privilage of seeing a lot of animals taken over the years and I still believe shot placement over energy foot pounds

Im not saying anyone should shoot what I shoot or there wrong, not by any means, Im saying I likely see more variety in calibers per year then most do in ten and see results good bad and some, like your story that leaves one thinking , wow thats odd. I do believe some investigation and thought would show what happened as to why he went over, i suspect the energy had little to do with it and was alot of animal reaction.
I have come to believe some things for taking game, number ONE is shot placement then in no particular order is energy and terminal velocity at given range, Sectional density of the bullet and something which is more a theory on my part but if the moment of impact if the animal has his lung full of air or deflated and even if the shot hits between beats, things that would be hard to prove but ever been punched in chest between breaths, knocks wind out of you and can drop a person like a rock. I think sometimes thats what happens when a lung or heart shot takes thier legs out from under them at impact.
Anyway regardless of the theory, the other things are all required almost equally to have a clean ethical shot, if you miss one you truelly limit the equation and as such limit the ability to take game ethically.
So to conclude, at the end of your 3 day tracking of a perfect shot at that angle, were you wishing youd used more gun? Completely proves what I have been meaning. I have taken elk with 7mm mag, 30.06, 300 win mag, 300 wthrby and 338 mag, and seem scads of elk taken with calibers in between I have seen a 280 emptied EMPTIED into vitals of a big cow and my 300 put her down when the guy was empty. The reason i use what i use is i never felt under gunned and as of yet havent tracked more then 15 minutes for one cleaning shot with a 300 win mag. Not to say a 30.06 isnt as good at its terminal range or a multitude of other calibers but they again, are all within reason for the size and range of the animal, a 243 is not that cat nor IMHO is a 25.06

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Location: eastern Washington
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Elk Hunt with 25-06?

So what about the guys that DO pass on a questionable shot and shoot a smaller caliber. are these guys wrong for not shooting a cannon or should everybody go out and shoot whitetails with a 300 wthby mag and blow the whole front shoulder completly off.

I geuss my point and I dont mean to piss in anyones wheatys here is use your brain that is why god gave it to you. you can shoot a cannon if you want and I have no problem with that but if you shoot a smaller caliber like myself ( I shoot a 270 and a7x57) use that thing on top of your head for more than a damn hatrack.

ps I appologize right here and now for the attitude but I have seen more wounded game from the guy who has the cannon and thinks he can shoot 300+ than the guy with the smaller round who knows when to say maybe next year.

again sorry to piss anyone off

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Location: Fruita Colorado
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Elk Hunt with 25-06?

To answer your question, no I would not have wished I had a bigger caliber. Because who is to say your 338 would not have done the same thing that day with that animal. I agree with TKleather in the fact that I've seen a lot of wounded critters from those guys that claim they can shoot that big magnum and a lot of people just can't do it. Again shoot a weapon you comfortable with and can shoot well. Good luck and good hunting!

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Location: Montana
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Elk Hunt with 25-06?

So if you made a perfect shot, and you had the perfect round for that shot, what went wrong? things dont happen for no reason. Ballistics is a science not a opinion so why did you have to track for 3 days? It was either you or the round that failed which was it?
BTW im not trying to be smart at all, i study terminal ballistics and am curious to your opinion that a 338 would have the same results as a 7mm Mag result you had. I can for sure say it wouldnt so we would have to agree to disagree there.
As for 300 win mag being a cannon, well i hate to say it but its truely middle of the road and why i use it as far as large game is concerned. Deer my friend is medium game, elk and larger being in my opinion large game and in that sense a 300 win mag is considered the baby of those calibers. A friend of mine ,former colorado elk guide and now African dangerous game guide considers a 300 win mag bare minimum for elk, proof in point to each his own within reason.

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Elk Hunt with 25-06?

What? What sensable guide considers 300 Win mag a bare minimum for elk? Laugh Does that guide actually hunt? A good many elk hunters use it and have for a long time with very excellent results. I consider it a solid cartridge for elk and all other biggame certainly. What about all those many thousands of hunters who have taken elk with 7x57mm, 270 Win, 7mm mag, .308 win, .30-06 sprgfld. Those excellent cartriges aren't good anymore because mister elk guide says they're not?? Are all those elk less dead now because someone somehow deems these cartridges less effective now?? What about all the elk I've taken over the last 25 years with my .270 Win using both 150 gr and 130 gr bullets? Are all those bulls less dead? I'm certain of the effectiveness of my .270 Win on bulls. Talk to the Hand What about all those soft lead bullets that all the old timers used before jacketed bullets were popular? Were those old timers not able to take elk? From what I hear and have read those guys did just fine with what they had. Are arrows less effective on elk? Last I checked no bow out there can deliver anywhere near the energy that a 300 win mag can. Yet many of you guys have taken them with archery. Com'on guys I think you're way overthinking this stuff and nit-picking and coming up with a lot of thoeries about this caliber and that cartridge. I'd rather listen to what reality and real practical experience has taught me, and not pay too much attention to all those dreamed-up theories. Chose a cartridge designed to give enough energy to penetrate teh vitals in the appropriate weight and do your part as a hunter, you should be fine!!

This whole topic reminds a lot of a conversation I once had with a new 18 yr old youngster right out of trade school about 15 years ago when I was working for a few years framing new house construction. His delema was that he didn't know what weight framing hammer was best. He debated 19 oz, 22, oz, 23 oz, and 28oz hammer heads. We used phnuematic nail guns for the vast majority of nailing. After he explained his theories on all the weights I simply told him: learn how to properly handle any hammer and learn how to sink a nail the right way without hurting yourself and you should be fine with either of them eye roll My whole point is that they all work very well when in the hands of a skilled person. This same idea really applies to rifles for hunting as well.

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Location: Montana
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Elk Hunt with 25-06?
WesternHunter wrote:
What? What sensable guide considers 300 Win mag a bare minimum for elk? Laugh Does that guide actually hunt? A good many elk hunters use it and have for a long time with very excellent results. I consider it a solid cartridge for elk and all other biggame certainly. What about all those many thousands of hunters who have taken elk with 7x57mm, 270 Win, 7mm mag, .308 win, .30-06 sprgfld. Those excellent cartriges aren't good anymore because mister elk guide says they're not?? Are all those elk less dead now because someone somehow deems these cartridges less effective now?? What about all the elk I've taken over the last 25 years with my .270 Win using both 150 gr and 130 gr bullets? Are all those bulls less dead? I'm certain of the effectiveness of my .270 Win on bulls. Talk to the Hand What about all those soft lead bullets that all the old timers used before jacketed bullets were popular? Were those old timers not able to take elk? From what I hear and have read those guys did just fine with what they had. Are arrows less effective on elk? Last I checked no bow out there can deliver anywhere near the energy that a 300 win mag can. Yet many of you guys have taken them with archery. Com'on guys I think you're way overthinking this stuff and nit-picking and coming up with a lot of thoeries about this caliber and that cartridge. I'd rather listen to what reality and real practical experience has taught me, and not pay too much attention to all those dreamed-up theories. Chose a cartridge designed to give enough energy to penetrate teh vitals in the appropriate weight and do your part as a hunter, you should be fine!!

quote]

Funny thing, thats exactly what I told the individual I spoke of too. Yes he hunts, lots of dangerous game he is on the opposite end of the spectrum of those willingly using small calibers on elk (25 cal and lower) both left me shaking my head.
You dont have to think like Elmer Keith but its reasonable to think. I find it odd i have to defend using a 300 win mag at all and makes me question the exsperiance of anyone making the issue,as it is known as the elk round. My whole point was the person asked for 25.06 and NOONE comes in to say hey, a 243 to the head isnt a ethical shot. I have the skills and ability to call and stalk close enough to pop a yong bull in head with a 22 mag too.
So ill go back to my orginal point and those that dont thing guides and outfitters know a damn thing even though taken and seen taken more game then anyone reading about it on thier toilet and shooting elk on thier cabelas computer game dont have to listen.
Most will reccomend from 7mm to 388, if this helps great if not great.

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Location: Pipestone, MN
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Elk Hunt with 25-06?
WesternHunter wrote:
What? What sensable guide considers 300 Win mag a bare minimum for elk? Laugh Does that guide actually hunt? A good many elk hunters use it and have for a long time with very excellent results. I consider it a solid cartridge for elk and all other biggame certainly. What about all those many thousands of hunters who have taken elk with 7x57mm, 270 Win, 7mm mag, .308 win, .30-06 sprgfld. Those excellent cartriges aren't good anymore because mister elk guide says they're not?? Are all those elk less dead now because someone somehow deems these cartridges less effective now?? What about all the elk I've taken over the last 25 years with my .270 Win using both 150 gr and 130 gr bullets? Are all those bulls less dead? I'm certain of the effectiveness of my .270 Win on bulls. Talk to the Hand What about all those soft lead bullets that all the old timers used before jacketed bullets were popular? Were those old timers not able to take elk? From what I hear and have read those guys did just fine with what they had. Are arrows less effective on elk? Last I checked no bow out there can deliver anywhere near the energy that a 300 win mag can. Yet many of you guys have taken them with archery. Com'on guys I think you're way overthinking this stuff and nit-picking and coming up with a lot of thoeries about this caliber and that cartridge. I'd rather listen to what reality and real practical experience has taught me, and not pay too much attention to all those dreamed-up theories. Chose a cartridge designed to give enough energy to penetrate teh vitals in the appropriate weight and do your part as a hunter, you should be fine!!

This whole topic reminds a lot of a conversation I once had with a new 18 yr old youngster right out of trade school about 15 years ago when I was working for a few years framing new house construction. His delema was that he didn't know what weight framing hammer was best. He debated 19 oz, 22, oz, 23 oz, and 28oz hammer heads. We used phnuematic nail guns for the vast majority of nailing. After he explained his theories on all the weights I simply told him: learn how to properly handle any hammer and learn how to sink a nail the right way without hurting yourself and you should be fine with either of them eye roll My whole point is that they all work very well when in the hands of a skilled person. This same idea really applies to rifles for hunting as well.

Well, first off I think what Romey has been driving at, in his experience as a guide he has seen more difficult tracking jobs after hit with light caliber.

" What about all those soft lead bullets that all the old timers used before jacketed bullets were popular? Were those old timers not able to take elk?"

Back in that era, calibers were large, and bullets were generally heavy. Diameter, mass , and momentum iis what did the job, not so much speed. With faster jacketed bullets of today, one still needs a certain amount of mass to ensure penetration, but with less diameter, one needs to make up the difference to a point with more energy. I have always felt and found anyhow, as diameter decreases, the more energy is required. Providing of course the bullet is built to handle the speed, and weight is such to penetrate.

" Are arrows less effective on elk? Last I checked no bow out there can deliver anywhere near the energy that a 300 win mag can."

In reality, they kill with a different mechanisms, if that is the correct term. Bullets basically create blunt force trama, whereas a arrow cuts. Tore flesh clots quicker. Point is blunt force don't bleed near as profusely as a blade cut. They both require a certain amount of energy to penetrate. The faster something is, the more resistance in encounters, bullet s deform and arrows do not. This also requires bullets having more energy to penetrate..

For the hammer part,,,I also know what your saying there as well. But having driven my share of #40 and #60 pole barns,,,give me a heavy hammer everytime. You can get it done with a 20-22 oz., but a 26-28oz gets it done a whole lot faster and easier.

Just my opinion and thought anyhow.
Dave

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Elk Hunt with 25-06?

I see what you're saying. I am well aware of the mechanisms that are involved in killing biggame with various weapons. I'm ceratinly no armchair hunter. Not saying I'm the most experienced, but I surely have been hunting them for a better part of my life my friend.

My point wasn't to make fun of Romey, as he did clarify his opinion on the matter and I pretty much agree with him. It's just that I've been hunting and shooting for more than 25 years, been in a circle of hunters all my life. I'm close friends with a several elk hunters and casually know many more than are within my circle. Many of my close friends use the 300 win mag on elk and I have seen game fall to it many times. Now with that said, the statement from the guide that Romey knows about the 300 win mag was the first time I have ever heard such a statement. So forgive me if I found it amuzingly laughable. To me any cartridge that can throw a 200 grain bullet at an average of 2850 ft/sec is not a cartrideg to be scoffed at or taken lightly. I consider it to be a serious contender in the biggame hunting world. If a .30-06 can take any game animal in the world (and I mean ANY) then what reason do I have to believe that a 300 win mag is a medium level cartridge.

Back to the whole hammer story: I agree that heavier is better for sinking many size nails into demensional lumber, but may not really be as efficient as we think because not many folks these days can swing a 28 oz or 32 oz framing hammer all day without feeling some severe wrist and elbow pain. So heavier isn't always better. Same to be said with guns, hunters should pick a reasonable cartridge.

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Elk Hunt with 25-06?

Romey you looked past the moral of the story. Bullets don't always do what you expect no matter what caliber you are shooting or bullet. That bullet did not keep going the way it should have. You did not reply at all about the little buck and the 300 Weatherby, why did that bullet not go completely through the deer at 90 yards, that was a 220 gr bullet. My hole point is, it is legal to shoot elk with a .243 in Colorado and if you are ethical, comfortable, and shoot well with your weapon DO IT. We all have stories of large caliber and small calibers and animals getting away, but that is the great thing about America we all have our own opinions and maybe we can all learn from each other.
One other small thing Romey, I never said all guide and outfitters were stupid. I can completely understand having a large caliber weapon to hunt dangerous game but for this PH to tell his hunters what gun they HAVE to use to hunt elk with is beyond me, he should have told them before they came that away they could book with someone else. One other thing science can be proven wrong over and over again. You hunt long enough and strange things can happen. Don't get me wrong Romey I am actually kinda starting to like you for some strange reason , give me a call sometime and we can swap stories for about a month straight. Good luck and good hunting!

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Location: eastern Washington
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Elk Hunt with 25-06?

[You dont have to think like Elmer Keith but its reasonable to think. I find it odd i have to defend using a 300 win mag at all and makes me question the exsperiance of anyone making the issue,as it is known as the elk round. ]

You know it wasnt all that long ago that the 270 was "the elk round" so I still think that you dont have to shoot a cannon to kill one.

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