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Location: Summit, IL
Joined: 10/22/2006
Posts: 706
Does anybody know the story?
brandonhill55 wrote:
hunting fenced in areas is hunting but its not hunting naturally. the deer are fed and bred to be big. there not natural giants that are found in the wild. its a hell of a lot bigger of a accomplishment to take a deer half that sized in an unfenced in area. yeah if it were hunting naturally why arent they aloud to enter them into the books as world records. because the deer are freaks of nature that have been made that way. i feel hunting fenced areas is hunting but its not hunting naturally where the sport actually derived from. its shying away from where hunting actually came from. its like stem cell research in humans really...

The "sport" derived from feeding ones self and their family. Actually the "sport" derived from the kings needing to fullfill their need for the feeling of superiority over the common man so they made hunting illegal. Now as far as unnaturally,,,Please tell me the difference between me having a 300 acre hunting area where I have 4 or 5 2 acre food plot to feed my deer through the hard winter months and I hunt only does and mature lessor bucks for 5 years allowing my good genetic bucks to grow? This is what these LARGE ranches do. The little small goof ranches are the ones people need to have an issue with. A 2000 acre plot is far from not allowing a deer free range. Please tell me what the difference is to someone spending about 250,000 to 500,000 fencing off 2000 acres as to someone buying a high genetics buck for 20k and putting it on their 500 unfenced acreage and allowing it to pass its genetics on? People do this all the time. Boone and Crocket need to wake up a little and maybe set an acreage limit to that farce of a rule...Now again I do NOT believe in canned hunts but say its 1k acres or more sheesh WAKE UP...Thats some hard huntin. The reason they arent found in the "wild" as you put it brandon is because people cant seem to fathom the art of deer management!! The kill 3 year old deer with a deacent 10 point on them thinking they have a trophy!! when if they would have let that buck get to 6 they would really have one! Whereas on a well managed place thats not an issue because the deer are managed to their full extent.

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Joined: 09/15/2006
Posts: 35
enclosure hunting

Saying a three year old "wild" ten pointer is no trophy is b.s , listen as a full time taxidermist in Michigan i've seen trophy's of all sizes. For one the general hunting public up here definately shoots far too many small ones, so i agree that the potential is vastly abused. But if you think everyone will only consider a buck a trophy if it's six years old and scores 180 your way off. Where's the mystery in hunting if you grow a monster in a enclosure? Sure he may not be easy to harvest but he's there, catalog'd and sometimes tagged in an ear. Bigger enclosures are more challenging but a canned hunt is a canned hunt. These hunts may be the way of the future for many but not for me. Sorry to step on anyone's toes in here but thats the way most of my hunting buddies and i feel.

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Location: milford, Ohio
Joined: 11/30/2005
Posts: 88
Does anybody know the story?

i agree with mig hunter, couldnt have been said more clearly. fenced is fenced! and i dont think it should be allowed in boone and crockett or pope and young. i do agree hunters do settle with smaller bucks, and should let some walk but whos to tell who what to shoot and not to shoot my buddy shot a 6 pointer this year which was small but it was his first buck he had ever shot, he just started hunting this year. So for him yes id say it was a monumental buck, no trophy but a start and next year he ll shoot bigger and so on. i just think herding deer and messing with deer movement and genetics to unveil these monsters isnt bad. Its pretty interesting if you ask me. I just dont think its hunting. And no i would never pay 20k for a monster whitetail. I would never pay any amount of money to kill a deer that i know im gonna kill. it takes away from like mig hunter said the mystery. wondering if you gonna see that big buck in your area or see another buck you have never seen before. I read now they have rifles that are attached to a tree and you control them from your computer for people who would love to hunt but dont want all the variables to go with it. it said they can control the rifle from there computer and they sit by there computer watch the screen when they see a deer they shoot it. the owners of the ranch go get the deer clean it tag it process it and then send you the mount. now if i were to shoot a world record or state record whitetail like that whats the difference. "its hunting as you would say" is this what hunting is going to come to, people with $$$$ who are too fu#$ing lazy or to feminine to get their a$$ out in the woods and do it right. if you cant handle the heat dont even enter the kitchen stay at home!!! canned hunts are unethical bottom line thats my opinion, everyone has opinions if you dont like mine oh well. i hunt ethically and will continue to do so and hunting uncanned i have some nice bucks on my wall that i have scouted and worked for and are a proud accomplishment of mine, not a bought deer that i didnt even work for just bought the hunt and then blasted him... see ya ll Yes also the buck in this pic was given a certain diet and was able to grow this rack due to the HELP of humans. bucks that are shot in the wild that get to close to or around this size is rare and when their shot they are in the news everywhere because that buck accomplished that rack naturally with no intervention from humans. the buck above was tagged put in a genetic gene pool and was made. im done! Yes

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Location: Summit, IL
Joined: 10/22/2006
Posts: 706
Does anybody know the story?

So Lemmi get this right...Ya'll dont believe in food plots? Or supplimental feeding throught the year to anchor some deer on your property? You dont hunt hard and take out does to manage your properties? You dont pass up a 2 year old deer sporting a 8 point because he needs to grow and reproduce those fine genetics into your heard? You dont believe in taking out a 5 year old buck thats just has a spindly little 6 point geneticly inferior rack? Yes some of these places do offer easy hunts and I do not agree with them whatsoever but to say a 2000 acre ranch is an easy "canned" hunt is sheer lunacy and you obviously havnt hunted something like it...This is the problem that is starting here...People who have no idea what they are talking about are all up in a tizzy thinking that you just get to one of these places...Order up a deer and go shoot it...Thats malarkie plain and simple...Now yes SOME of those places are like that....But not all...Thats just like you all saying well this hunter kills more than the limit and is illegaly hunting so all the other hunters are illegal as well!! I personally have never hunted one of these places for deer as I have no need to... I properly manage my hunting grounds and have no need to pay someone for doing it for me...But some others do not have the luxury of time to be able to do that or they dont have the land to do it with. Im still waiting on someone to tell me the difference between you feeding your deer and planting food plots to enhance your herds health and one of these ranches with HUGE acreage fenced yes but still MORE area and free ranging than most any deer herd you will find..They just happen to properly manage their herds to produce these massive animals. I see no difference at all...Its all management and people need to open their eyes...Dont talk about things that you have no experiance with. The hunting community has enough problems without people causing more through ignorance. Now im done

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Joined: 09/15/2006
Posts: 35
Does anybody know the story?

You say yourself that you have never hunted an enclosure yet you tell us not to judge what we have not done? I personally said earlier that it is not for sure easier to hunt a particular buck in a large enclosure. But he's in there and you know it...along with probably many other nice bucks. I've some experiance in hunts in enclosure up to 2000 acres and although some are difficult it is still somewhat of an artificial enviroment. As for food plots and stuff, well thats providing for the "natural" occuring deer there, but with enclosures your providing the deer itself and enhancing those deer by giving them supplements that produce larger antlers. I know for a fact that many game farms use steroids and such to do this. Now how the hell can those animals be considered for record books? That my friend is why up to now most record keeping institutions like P&Y and B&C dont allow it. Any baseball fans in here? Barry Bonds ring a bell? I would not give a nickel for his autograph any more than i would shoot a buck in any size enclosure and boast about it. Not trying to offend anyone by that statement but thats how i feel. I deal all the time with guy's who bring in heads from game farms to have mounted and thats fine with me. But its there choice to hunt there and thats is fine by me, i hear every story from every hunter in my shop. I have never bad mouthed their hunts at all, just never understood it. Just my opinion.

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Location: Summit, IL
Joined: 10/22/2006
Posts: 706
Does anybody know the story?

For one I said I had not hunted deer in one...I have hunted exotics on several...And again you are stateing knowledge of steroids in SOME of these....THATS what Im getting at...Just because 1 out of 200 does it, does NOT make it a fact for the rest. As far as supplements its no different than you going out to your farm and putting down corn or "deer feed" and In my own experiance on these huge properties the hunts are just as if not more so rewarding and challenging. Also...How is it different going to one of these knowing that there is a big buck on it than it is spotting a big buck on your own property and hunting for it? Whats the real difference in going to a 2000 acre game farm hi fenced than going on a guided hunt in another state that you arent from? Someone else has done all the research for you...All the scouting...Knows where the animals are and their trails...You are paying for a service...Its the same on the large places...Its a service that is saving you time that you may not have to do all the research and scouting. My point is these big places arent "canned" and it just irritates me to see it called that....Its simply ignorance to call it such. A canned hunt and also that "net hunt" crap is just that...CRAP...and noone doing such could be called a hunter and I agree with that totally...But Going off on these places that are 1000 acres + is just stupid. Little hint...From what I have gatherd from a lot of hunters that have hunted white tails on them...Those deer are harder hunts than typicals...They know the area well...The higher class places make sure the deer have excellent cover and we all know deer know how to use available cover quite well to ther advantag. But you are guided and you do have an advantage with that...But its no more advantage than it would be if you went on a guided hunt on a 2000 acre unfenced ranch in montana.

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Location: milford, Ohio
Joined: 11/30/2005
Posts: 88
Does anybody know the story?

cam69conv_____ i guess you do have a point there! i see what your saying no hunt on a 2000 acre plot fenced or unfenced isnt easy. i hunt 800 and its very hard at times. I understand what your saying i dont disagree with the big acreage but the small acreage canned hunts i do. i have no disagreements. Yes i do feed my deer and yes i do take deer that have poor genetics so its not passed on and yes i do let deer walk that have great genetics and that have more potential. I do take plenty of doe also i totally know what you mean by that. im not trying to chap your a$$ about this i just hunt unfenced and i guess in big acreage fenced its really no different free roaming deer on 2000 acres free roaming yes you have to use strategies as if they were unfenced bc of the size of the property you still have to locate and pinpoint deer movement. i know it wouldnt be a walk in the park i getcha cam69conv, i hear ya! we should post a new post to see what others say. im curious! i do see where your coming from 2000 is big acreage and not any joe schmoe can locate deer let alone monster bucks fenced or unfenced Yes

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Joined: 09/15/2006
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Does anybody know the story?

Look this debate could go on forever if i was in the mood. However this would be a waste of both our time. I dont believe the scoring clubs like i mentioned will ever ok acceptance based on the size of the enclosure. Simply because no two 2000 acre plus are going to be considered the same. Some may be open country with little relative cover and the next may be an impenaterable swamp with much cover. But thats will never be for you and i to decide. I dont know or even care about what a deer scores in the first place as the record books are already polluted with game farm animals. This is a fact! I've mounted high scoring deer heads killed on game farms and they are registered in P&Y, B&C, and Commemortive Bucks of Michigan (where im from). It's become too big of a money business so the game farm owners simply shut up and the deer are put in the system so to speak. There's a particular enclosure near me thats very difficult and thick terrain and i know its not a real easy hunt. So i'll say one last time that im not saying its always easy! If your ok with considering an enclosure buck a trophy thats great for you! I personally cannot and will NEVER hunt anything on a high fence ranch of any size. I will not try any further to show you what the differance is for me, your mind is made up pure and simple and thats ok. Enjoy hunting either way and good luck!

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Joined: 07/11/2006
Posts: 139
Does anybody know the story?

Wow
Didn’t mean to start an argument.
If that guy owned that land what would be the difference between me having 80 acres with food plots and supplemental antler growth feeding and this guy. He is still the land owner.

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Location: Canada
Joined: 12/26/2006
Posts: 323
Does anybody know the story?

And lets not forget that deer ranchers selective breed for superior genetics and antler growth. They buy bucks from other breeders to put out with their does and ........................sorry that is not a natural breeding herd and a 'trophy' from a fenced enclosure that receive food and mineral supplements to further enhance the superior genetics they have in the first place hardly deserves to be logged in the same category as a buck from a free ranging wild area where natural selection takes place.

Before the borders closed, super bucks from private Saskatchewan and Alberta herds were being bought and transported to deer farms in the US. After they are introduced into local fenced herds the deer produced are no different than my selecting a a stud horse to run with my mares. It is not natural selection and the offsrping are not indicative of what would have been produced in a free range environment in that area.

If you want to hunt behind high fence, fly right at it, but to suggest that the B&C should include these deer in the record book is getting a little carried away. They have no way at this point of proving whether the genetics in a given herd are 100% local genetics to the area with no super buck injection from elsewhere.

Granted Iowa has great deer, but the logistic hurdles involved to establish what fenced farms are OK and which ones are not is an excercise in futility. The process would be a nightmare for any trophy organization and cost a bundle in money and man hours and utlimately never make everyone happy anyways.

SCI takes fenced animals......................it is a well known organization and is the obvious venue for 'trophies' from fenced enclosures so go enter it with them. B&C should continue as they have instead of opening this can of worms.

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