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Location: Aleknagik Alaska / Ozello Keys Florida
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Posts: 186
Do you support wolf reintroduction? (June 2004 Poll)

Lot?s of well stated ideas here, Most seem to take a little different road but all come seem to the same conclusion. It?s all management issues. It would be interesting to see a area that had zero wolf population to start with planted with wolves that were sterile. You could monitor the effects and add or take away from the population to sorta dial it in so to speak. The data from a study such as this would be close to that of a natural wolf population on a given area. It just seems all the efforts are geared toward getting a breeding population established in order to save the vanishing wolf with the current environment being a secondary issue. I don?t just a thought, have a good day.

~Jeff~

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Do you support wolf reintroduction? (June 2004 Poll)

That is a good idea Jeff, it would be a good scientific approach to fettering out what the step change in predator population does to the prey population once and for all.

Although, good luck to anyone that tries to get a neutered wolf re-introduction plan passed anywhere in the western U.S.

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Do you support wolf reintroduction? (June 2004 Poll)
Quicksilver wrote:
The underlying idea and support for the re-introduction of wolves is based off the fact that the wolves will be properly managed after it becomes established and begins to thrive.

Lets face it, once these wolve are dropped in Idaho, Montana, Wyoming, New Mexico, and begin to thrive, these canines are free to move where ever they please, and reproduce wthin the range of , "25 to 1000 square miles..."

There is no way around it, these wolves are going to roam, ranchers live stock will become easy prey, there will be un-foreseen complications, and the end result will be an expensive management problem....

I have serious doubts surrounding a successful outcome if the only conservation methods offered at controlling the wolves are: relocation and hunting! .

Wolves are smart - if - and I admit that's a big "IF" - landowners and ranchers are allowed to shoot them if they are found on private property the wolves will very quickly (suprisingly quickly) associate cattle with getting shot at and stay away from them. That was our experience in northern Sask when they first cleared the community pastures out of the timber. Although this is not reintroduction, it is introducing a new potential prey (cattle) into what had previously been wolf country.

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Location: Aleknagik Alaska / Ozello Keys Florida
Joined: 07/05/2004
Posts: 186
I held back for days...Responce to JTapia

Quote:JTapia
While my affirmative vote on re-introduction is, as stated earlier, based on conservation issues I can appreciate the concerns of those that will be directly affected by this.
I have had some experience with re-introduction of endangered species though and in no case has all the hoopla about the destruction of the way of life of the citizens, or the economy ever materialized.
These experiences are as follows:
Alligators- about 30 years ago someone stood up and yelled " all the Gators are gone from the waters of Florida, we need to save them critters!!". An extensive re-introduction campaign along with Federal recongnition of the Florida Alligator as an "endangered Species" began the re-population of alligators into every large freshwater body of water through-out the state.
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http://www.cfactcampus.org/site/fact/ESAFactSheet.pdf

Of the over 1,000 species that have been put on
the federal endangered species list, fewer than 30 have been removed. And of these, more have
been removed because of extinction than as a result of regulatory efforts to save them. Others
have been taken off the list because it was determined that they were never endangered in the first
place. The American alligator, for example, was mistakenly put on the list

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Quote:JTapia
The end result...Gators everywhere in every ditch, every backwater slough, every lake and pond in the state.
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http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/South/02/24/alligator.attack.ap/

Monday, February 24, 2003 Posted: 1:51 PM EST (1851 GMT)

ENGLEWOOD, Florida (AP) -- A 70-year-old woman was in fair condition Monday after an alligator ripped off part of her arm as she trimmed brush outside her condo, officials said.

http://www.utahchronicle.com/news/2002/09/25/WorldReport/Alligator.Bites...

Alligator Bites off Man's Right Arm
Published: Wednesday, September 25, 2002
GAINESVILLE, Fla.?An alligator bit off a man's right forearm, which was retrieved from the animal's stomach but was too damaged to reattatch, wildlife officials said Tuesday.
Don Goodman, the director of the Kanapaha Botanical Gardens, was weeding a water lily garden Monday when the 11-foot alligator bit his arm off from just below his elbow

http://www.scaryplace.com/LostArm.htm

A human arm that appeared to have been bitten by an alligator was found in a canal west of Fort Lauderdale, sheriff's deputies said on Monday.

The raggedly severed right arm was found on Sunday and was that of an adult male who apparently did not survive, said Broward County Sheriff's spokeswoman Veda Coleman-Wright. "We're sure if they survived and they're missing a right arm, they would have come forward by now," she said. "Detectives have no idea what happened with this body part, whether it was some sort of accident and the person was eaten by an alligator and this is what's left."

Investigators took fingerprints from the hand.

Alligator attacks have become more common in Florida.The Florida Fish and Wildlife Conservation Commission has recorded 289 alligator attacks on humans, 11 of them fatal, since it began keeping records in 1948. Six people have been attacked by alligators in the last three months, two of them fatally.

Whoever lost an arm, please raise your right hand to claim it...
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Hey that confirms the one in every ditch thing, Looks like its a great thing they have done down there.
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Quote:JTapia
Now we hunt them to control their numbers.
Upon the re-introduction start-up all the doomsday forecasters started crying that every dog in the state would be eaten by these gators along with every fish, fowl and swimmer in the water and this would deter all the tourist from coming here and vacationing there-by destroying the economy. DID NOT happen. None of it, Condos everywhere, humane society still kills 1000s of dogs a year, not Gators. I, along with millions of others swim in Gator infested waters all the time with only 1 or 2 attacks a year and those usually involved gators that had been fed by humans.
I have a 13lb 10 oz Largemouth Bass on my wall that I caught from a gator infested lake.
Florida Panther- As written on this forum there are many that believe that the Panther should be allowed to disappear from the face of the earth. Their reasons are, attacks by panthers on people, farm animals, pets and wildlife. I dont think there has ever been a reported case of a Panther attack on a human. Yes there are attacks on Wildlife, what else are they supposed to eat? Pets and farm animals are attacked(so they say)
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http://myfwc.com/whatsnew/04/pantherfencing-st.html

Responding to calls from owner Jack Shealy, FWC and National Park Service (NPS) staff visited Trail Lakes Campground on June 8 and discovered two goats and an emu that had been killed by a Florida panther.
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So they say??? Looks like so they do?.

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Quote:JTapia
but not so many as to create a problem.
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If it had been your arm in that gators belly would you still sing the same song???
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Quote:JTapia
One night when I was about 12 years old we were just finishing up our Dinner when we heard the thunderous sound of 57 horses heading for the barn from our lower pasture. We grabbed our guns and loaded up in the truck and headed out to see what was the matter. We treed a Panther in the lower pasture but my Dad forbid us from shooting it,
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And if it had been dead livestock on the back 40 such as other south Florida residents have found, would dad have not done said ... Shoot um boys .. in order to protect his stock and family???
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Quote:JTapia
calling the Wildlife Commision instead. They sent a biologist out who promply told us that there were no Panthers this far north. I have personally seen panthers alive and well on our ranch on 3 different occasions but we haven't lost not one animal to a Panther.
Coyotes- While this was no forced re-introduction we have them now...everywhere...when we didn't before. 10 years ago if you saw a coyote here then you were watching him chase a roadrunner on TV.
There were write-ups in all the papers about the doom and destruction the coyote would bring upon us all along with the annilation of the Deet herds. We were told to be careful in the woods while hunting as the coyotes hunted in large packs and would kill us and devour every part of our body. We were told that Deer hunting was about to become a thing of the past unless we killed every single coyote east of the mississippi as they would kill every new fawn born. There is no closed season on coyotes and we are still encouraged to kill every one we see. Of course none of that ever happened, deer are still everywhere, no hunter that I have heard of has been killed and eaten by a pack of coyotes. Only thing I have noticed has been the disappearance of the Armadillos. There is the occasional report of a pet being attacked by coyotes.
Where am I going with allof this? None of the doomsday forecast ever materialized from the reintroduction of these dangerous animals.

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so you say
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Quote:JTapia
I have no reason to believe they will happen if the Wolf is reintroduced either

Location: Utah
Joined: 02/24/2003
Posts: 596
Do you support wolf reintroduction? (June 2004 Poll)

The estimated population of Florida in 2003 was 17,019,068. Since 1948 there has been 289 attacks from alligators and 11 of them were fatal. It would only be a guess as to how many people have ever lived in Florida but lets take a conservative number and say since 1948 25,000,000 people have ever lived there. That would mean 1 person for every 86,505 people would be attacked. And 1 in 2,272,727 would die from a gator attack. Hardly startling numbers for supporting the notion that gators are a serious concern to humans as a whole.

Animals live on instinct and do not know civilization. Human encounters with animals that result in injury or death will happen. Bears, wolves, gators, cape buffalo, sharks, its just life. The only way to stop it is take every animal on this earth that has horns, venom, sharp teeth, or sharp claws and wipe it out. Along with wolf re-intro there will be problems. There will be and already is dead livestock. I believe a man should be able to protect his livestock and an attacking wolf should be a dead wolf.

However I still think the forecast of problems is very overstated. The cattle and sheep industry will hardly notice. Very few people will ever be attacked by wolves. But they'll take 2 attacks and turn it into a national scandal. Some will say these wolves are evil and should be destroyed and what a mistake we made with re-intro because of a few extremely rare, isolated incidents.

Lets face it, as hunters or as a vistor to wolf country you should be more afraid of being struck by lightning that being attacked by a wolf.

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Location: Aleknagik Alaska / Ozello Keys Florida
Joined: 07/05/2004
Posts: 186
Do you support wolf reintroduction? (June 2004 Poll)

And I agree 100%. Wolves, gators, panthers and bears do not make me concerned for my well being when I am in their territory. My apologizes to JTapia, The only point I wanted to make with the above post is one can not glaze over the real situation.. Example. A Miami herald reporter this week wrote an article about the panther situation. With in the context of the story he referred to the panther killing livestock at the Trail Lakes campground this past month. He states that 2 goats were killed by this panther. His information came from the Everglades Park service. The fact is over 20 animals at Trail Lakes were killed. (Confirm numbers @239-695-2275 this is the man whose livestock was killed) This is Glazing over the facts to sooth public opinon. Facts are facts. The truth must be stated and let the public make up their own minds. Again I apologize to JTapia for making my point at your expense. But one must not be so narrow minded to not consider his neighbor. If the loss of life was with in your family, if it was your livestock, I feel most would hum a different tune.

Photo is a Florida panther Killing livestock this past month
the radio collar on this cat shows he is a test animal

~Jeff~

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Do you support wolf reintroduction? (June 2004 Poll)

No Apology needed jeffalaska, thats why we are here...to state our opinions and read others opinions.

I do take exception to your insinuation that I am unconcerned with the safety and well being of others and that I support death and dismemberment of people by wildlife until it happens in my family.
Nowhere have I ever said that the life of an animal is more important than a Human life.

At your precieved suggestion that all animals that kill humans are to be removed from the face of the planet. I believe that the narrowmind that you see is the reflection in the mirror that you look into each morning. Your response was nothing more than inflamatory.

I in no way "glazed" over the facts, I merely stated my own personal experiences with re-introduction issues. I did no research to come to my conclusions, just life experience. Your research and response simply confirmed my conclusion that doomsday forcasters will go to great lengths to distort facts to make their point. If you type negative search words into the search bar then all you're gonna get is negative results.

Now for the true facts..
Trail Lake Campground Panther.
Upon finding out that the Panther was caught and removed Mr Shealy stated "I never asked that the animal be removed,"
http://www.evergladesecho.com/articles/2004/07/06/front/top_stories/news02.txt
I guess Mr. Shealy knows where his bread is buttered. Its hard to run a wilderness campground without any wilderness or wilderness animals around. What I came away with on this story, Mr. Shealy was upset that the Panther was a Radio collared animal and that the FWC's fence guidelines were not enough to keep the Panther from getting thru to his livestock. He did what was asked using their suggestions and it didn't work. Thats what he is upset about not that a Panther killed his livestock.

Quote:
jeffalaska wrote: And if it had been dead livestock on the back 40 such as other south Florida residents have found, would dad have not done said ... Shoot um boys .. in order to protect his stock and family???

That was my point....we had no dead livestock even though we had a live Panther prowling around. Dad wouldn't allow us to shoot it cause it was illegal to shoot the panther. Some of us DO follow the law.

Now onto the REALLY dangerous animals:
..........".· Deer are the most dangerous animal to humans in terms of annual deaths. On average, over 29,000 human injuries and 211 deaths occur nationally due to deer/vehicle collisions. The result is more human deaths and injury being
caused by deer than by any other wild animal. Deer overabundance is directly related to the number of these accidents. The result is more human deaths being caused by deer than by sharks, snakes, or any other wild animal. "

"One insurance company study shows the average claim is $1,500, with nearly $130 million in losses yearly"

· "Economic impacts related to deer damage are significant in Pennsylvania -- costing over $70 million per year to forestry and over $75 million to agriculture.........."
http://pa.audubon.org/deerinfopage.htm

Now I ask you jeffalaska, do you support killing every single deer on this planet? If not, please state why. More Human Deaths than Alligators, more economic destruction than Wolves and Gators combined!!!

Other interesting deadly animals and the number of annual human deaths from each..
Dog Bites 20
Window blind cords 13
Bee Wasp stings 50
Fire Ants 100
Car Deer Collisions 211

"As Man and Beast Clash on Highway" James P. Sterba A 1995 study by
Michael R. Conover at Utah State University found deer-vehicle
collisions injured 29,000 and killed 211 people annually. Trivial out
of 43,000 highway, but more than commercial airlines, bus and train
accidents. Wall Street Journal Aug 1, 2002
http://www.arthurhu.com/index/health/death.htm

I included "window blind cords" to make the point of how insignificant 11 deaths from Alligator attacks over a 55 year period when there are 13 deaths ANNUALLY from Window Blind Cords.

When you call others narrowminded for not presenting "ALL" the facts you should also present "ALL" the facts yourself. But then again that would level the field and its hard to get your slant or angle in then.

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Location: Aleknagik Alaska / Ozello Keys Florida
Joined: 07/05/2004
Posts: 186
Do you support wolf reintroduction? (June 2004 Poll)

JT
I hope you have not misunderstood my meaning here. I am not against reintroduction of wolves, panthers or any other species. I just have a problem with the management of these animals once the are introduced to an area.
I believe the management plans would be much better done if the public was not overwhelmed with glazed over information.
The following letter was sent to me by the owner of Trail Lakes Campground the day he mailed it to the agencies listed.

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"JACK SHEALY"
To:
: Date: Mon, 7 Jun 2004 17:13:30 -0400

June 7, 2004
 
to: Carol Clark, Acting Preserve Superintendant
 
from: Trail Lakes Campground
 
re: Public safety threat and livestock losses due to
 
large, collared panther roaming over the
 
campground.
 

Dear Ms. Clark:
  
This letter is to inform you that there exists a serious safety issue
 
regarding one of the Florida panthers in this area. Although we support the
 
continued existence of the Florida panther in southern Florida,
 
the safety of our campers must come first. That safety has now been called into question by this collared panther's bold and aggresive
behavior.
 
At this time we urgently request your immediate assistance to capture
 
and remove this carnivore from our area. Also, within the last two weeks,
 
we have lost fourteen goats and two fully grown Emus, valued in excess
 
of $25,000., in total, considering fencing, past feed costs, etc.
 
We are sure your people are aware of this cat since, for weeks the
 
National Park Service's panther spotter plane has been circling our
 
campground frequently.
 
Please undersdtand, we are a small business and cannot sustain such
 
major financial losses. Hopefully, the N.P.S. has a program to re-
 
imburse our losses, etc., as the Emus are some of our most viewed
 
animals. Additionally, the goats, while not on display, are a vital part
 
of our grounds maintanence, as well as helping us control exotic,
 
invasive plant pests and also keep down brush to aid in fire control.
 
This is an urgent request since we have children who camp here. God
 
forbid any of them, or some elderly camper out walking their dog in
 
the evening, should be attacked and injured,or worse, killed by this
 
collared panther, as has ocurred elsewhere, of late.
  
To reiterate, we request, in the strongest way possible, that you
 
assist us and work with us immediately to remedy this deadly
 
safety problem.
 
 
 
Sincerely,
 
 
 
Jack C. Shealy
 
 
CC: Charles Collins, F.W.C.
 
Steve Coughlin, F.W.C.
 
Jim Coletta, Collier Co. Commissioner
 
Russell Tuff, Everglades Echo

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Now David (Jacks little brother) is a great guy, As a matter of fact he is a world
wide celebrity . But these guys are personal friends of mine and I know what butters Daves bread.......

http://web.naplesnews.com/special/skunkape/front.html#stories

Dave Shealy, who claims to be the proprietor of the world's only skunk ape research center, took 27 photographs of the 7-foot-tall creature in the Everglades on Sept 8. Shealy said the photographs are the product of eight months of sitting in a tree in the hope of coaxing the animal out of its native habitat.
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You ever see any of these skunk-apes down in your neck of the woods JT?

~Jeff~

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Location: Florida,USA
Joined: 08/21/2003
Posts: 1550
Do you support wolf reintroduction? (June 2004 Poll)
jeffalaska wrote:
JT
I hope you have not misunderstood my meaning here. I am not against reintroduction of wolves, panthers or any other species. I just have a problem with the management of these animals once the are introduced to an area.
I believe the management plans would be much better done if the public was not overwhelmed with glazed over information.
The following letter was sent to me by the owner of Trail Lakes Campground the day he mailed it to the agencies listed.

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You ever see any of these skunk-apes down in your neck of the woods JT?

~Jeff~

My apologies to you this time Jeff. I certainly did misunderstand you.
I also agree with you on management issues. Thats what I was alluding to when I wrote that the State Biologist said "there were no Panthers this far north". Also when I wrote "Alligators in every ditch". Management of these re-introductions left alot to be desired, IMHO.

Skunk Apes? Well actually I have had 2 run in's with "something".
Strange, Huge tracks once and a strange figure in the road just at the edge of my headlights. Dunno what it was but it was large, hairy and running on 2 legs.

I do believe that there might be something we dont know about roaming around out there.
The Link to Mr. Shealys Skunk Ape articles were dead ends. Do you have any more?

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