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Location: Colorado
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Do you support wolf reintroduction? (June 2004 Poll)

Since you don't seem to be able to reply, Quicksilver, without tossing in insulting comments, I will simply consider the source and henceforward ignore your postings.

Have a nice day.

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Location: Florida,USA
Joined: 08/21/2003
Posts: 1566
Do you support wolf reintroduction? (June 2004 Poll)

First I'll admit that there aint been a wolf around here for as long as anyone that I know can remember.
I just find it very distressful that outdoorsmen/women that are members of a Wildlife and Hunting Forum would express opposition to the reintroduction of an animal in it's previous natural range.

The Ranchers around here are the richest and most powerful people in the state and certainly do not need a hand out from the state or federal government for losses from predation on their livestock herd.

Australia and New Zealand also have predatory canines so how is it that their beef and lamb could be sold cheaper after paying the shipping cost to get their product to the states?

This is one of the down falls of America.....the Government just steps in and funds an industry to help maintain profit margins instead of letting them find ways to survive on their own with sound operating and financial procedures.
The only work you have to do in America anymore is to work at finding something to whine about that the Government will compensate you for.

Are we to give them and us compensation for the higher gas prices also? Surely that has cut into their production profit margins just as it has done to me. I want my hand out also.

Reintroduce the wolves and give the rancher the right to protect their herds by killing every wolf and wolf pup found on THEIR land and be done with it. No hand outs to the ranchers for Bullets and Guns needed to kill the wolves either.

cowgal's picture
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Location: Colorado
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Do you support wolf reintroduction? (June 2004 Poll)

The bottom line is, if the public wishes to re-introduce wolves (or other predators) where they will encroach on PRIVATE land and affect a ranching business, then the public needs to assume the cost. Mind you, I said private, not public land. Many ranchers lease public land for their operations, however many use their own private land exclusively and yet are forced to accept whatever predator is introduced on their land.

Wolves/predators may be introduced on public land, however they do NOT know about fences and boundaries, they will wander where ever the food is easiest to obtain. And I have to tell you, new lambs are pretty easy pickings!

I believe Quicksilver's point is to state that Americans as a whole, would like their cake & eat it too.

Donmillion, there is no comparison between the ranching business & the auto business or any other manufacturing business. Most ranches are small mom & pops or family run, very few are huge operations and able to absorb huge unexpected losses that predators could potentially inflict upon them. If you have no control over an outside element that affects your business, how can you produce your product more efficiently?

And Jtapia, as in hunting, ranching is different in this part of the country. We have a large variety of predators to deal with already, and its too simplistic to state that we should simply be given permission to shoot the predators. As I stated above, predators do not pay attention to fences & boundaries, & its seldom that you even catch them in the act. All a rancher finds is the remnants of their destruction.

Quicksilver's picture
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Location: Colorado
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Posts: 239
Do you support wolf reintroduction? (June 2004 Poll)
donmillion wrote:
Since you don't seem to be able to reply, Quicksilver, without tossing in insulting comments, I will simply consider the source and henceforward ignore your postings.

Have a nice day.

Donmillion, I'll recognize the chubby cheek remark, and respectfully apologize....
Some topics are better left alone.

Buenos días.

Quicksilver's picture
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Location: Colorado
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Do you support wolf reintroduction? (June 2004 Poll)
JTapia wrote:
Australia and New Zealand also have predatory canines so how is it that their beef and lamb could be sold cheaper after paying the shipping cost to get their product to the states?

Australia and New Zealand combined are the largest producers of lamb products in the world. The lambing industry in Australia brings in $1.3 billion and is claimed to be one of their largest industries.

Your right JTapia, from my understanding, one of the main predatory problems in Australia is ravaged dingos.

But what seperates Australia and the U.S. is the fact that the Australian Government supports the Wool and Lamb Market, and offers generous subsidies to Australian Ranchers.

The Australian Government dedicates close to $200 million to aid in the export of lamb products alone, offers incredibly low interest rates on land loans over $100.000, along with farm drought assistance, and many other relief type programs.

I guess it just helps to be #1...

It would be interesting to see, if the Australian Government was given the chance to re-introduce one of it's natural predatory cats, would the government go forth, and release it to reek havoc on it's top industry?

expatriate's picture
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Location: Arizona
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Do you support wolf reintroduction? (June 2004 Poll)

I support the wolf idea in concept, but I realize there's economics at stake.

I think it's fair to say we no longer live in an age where species have a "right" to exist wherever they will. Look at California's Mountain Lion problem and you see my point. Environmentalists refuse to compromise in order to protect the rights of people which, like it or not, are part of the ecosystem as well.

However, some folks raise such a stink about wolves that people forget that sheep are already at risk of canine predation in the form of coyotes. I'd be curious to know predation statistics for coyotes and how that would compare to a wolf population.

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Location: Wa.
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Do you support wolf reintroduction? (June 2004 Poll)

That's interesting.
Do wolves and coyotes co-habitate?
My question is. Would the wolves chase the coyotes out of the area or would they be able to live in a shared territory?
I have very little knowledge of wolves. With there reintroduction it's time I learn about them.
It seems as though they would be a natural means of game management. Being a predatory creature. The risks to livestock and ranchers could be costly. Then again, I have very little knowledge of wolves.

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Do you support wolf reintroduction? (June 2004 Poll)
Quicksilver wrote:
I guess it just helps to be #1...

Yes sir I would agree on that one.

Beef and Lamb are Commodities that are priced according to "supply and demand", greater supply, less demand = lower prices...etc.
Yes it helps the Aussie rancher to have their Government subsidize their industry by helping with export cost but that in itself doesn't hurt the Americian rancher or give the Aussie rancher an unfair advantage. Once the price is set everybody gets the same price.
If the American rancher has a high loss rate from predation then the supply will be lower thus, in theory, should result in higher prices and this could help cover some of the loss.
If the Australian Government gives their ranchers 200 million dollars to help export lamb and other livestock to the US then the US Government should make it cost the Aussie rancher 200 million dollars to import their product here.

I could not disagree with cowgal more.
I simply do not believe that it is right to make the American tax payers responsible for the ranchers profit margin because of a decision to reintroduce a native animal back into its home range. The ranchers did a fair enough job erradicating the wolves in the first place or they wouldn't have to be reintroduced. Thats just a cost of doing business...thats America, it cost money to make money.

I am not anti-rancher, quite the opposite actually as my family used to be ranchers and pig farmers. I am anti-government hand out though.

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Location: Arizona
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Posts: 3207
Do you support wolf reintroduction? (June 2004 Poll)

I have some questions for environmentalists seeking to restore the natural balance:

If science develops the ability to recover DNA and clone Passenger Pigeons or Ivory-Billed Woodpeckers back into existence, should we do it? It'd be great, wouldn't it -- undo the damage caused by humanity?

If the answer to that is "yes," then how about Wooly Mammoths? Should we clone Mammoths and set them free in Alaska and Canada? After all, we're just restoring things to the way they once were.

If technology allows and we can go back farther, what about turning T-Rex loose in Montana?

I'm just curious what Utopian date the environmentalists have in mind when restoring things to the way they were.

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Location: Florida,USA
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Do you support wolf reintroduction? (June 2004 Poll)
expatriate wrote:
If technology allows and we can go back farther, what about turning T-Rex loose in Montana?

I'm just curious what Utopian date the environmentalists have in mind when restoring things to the way they were.

I have seen the movies about modern day T-Rex and I want no part of that !!

Some valid points expatriate, even if they are too the extreme.
The other side of that coin would be, at what point do we say enough critters have been driven from the face of the earth before its enough?
Only the ugly ones? Leave the cute, cuddly furry ones?

How about Whitetail Deer? What good purpose do they serve other than to give us something else to hunt?

Whitetail Deer cause more dollars in damage to farmers crops than all predatory animals combined do to the meat market.
Whitetail Deer cause more human deaths in this country than all predatory animals combined yet nobody sounds an alarm or demands that the Government "compensate" them for lost wages cause we had to take off work to go a huntin when a few more than last year appear in the woods.

I have read on this very forum your comments on those "Deer-Mercs"(or was it Merc Deer?) and how cunning and dangerous those renagades can be with their political connections that cross oceans and boarders.
It has been rumored that they are the true teachers of al-Qaida suicide bombers.

I say re-introduce the wolves if for no other reason than to help thin the numbers of these dangerous, murderous, no account furry terrorist before they hurl themselves into YOUR vehicle or trample YOUR crops in an effort to starve your family into submission!!
Bambi............humph!

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