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WesternHunter's picture
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Re: Do we need preimun bullet's for deer?

Kalifornia is using that whole poisoned Condor thing to stir "moral panic" just like everything the left does to push it's aganda. The environmentalists used their spotted owl controversy and succeded in destroying most of the logging industry in the pacific northwest. It put a lot of folks out of work there. There's no evidence of lead projectiles poisoning the California Condor. Just like there is no evidence of lead poisoning of waterfowl in wetlands and yet a lot of waterfowl feed in many of the same fields where upland hunters still use lead shot. It's unbelievable how some of this legislation gets passes. It's by activists creating half truths and not finding facts or evidence. Such a shame that all too many wildlife biologists with the wildlife agencies can't figure that out. All this and guess who has to buy a more expensive product to hunt with? Yup, you and I.

Don Fischer's picture
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Re: Do we need preimun bullet's for deer?

Ifr monolithic bullet's cost the same as lead core bullets, would ou usethem then? I'm not sure I would. I have a really hard time with change. The closest thing to a new powder I've tried in years are RL19 and RL22. Other than those all I've ever used other than Hodgdons or Dupont powder's was N205 and it's gone. Once I find somethinf that works, it's hard for me to let go!

WesternHunter's picture
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Re: Do we need preimun bullet's for deer?

For me it's not the "change" that bothers me or worries me. For many things I'll make the change if it offers me something in return or if there is a legitimate worthwhile benefit to the change. What I'm bothered with is the mandated change that makes one either switch to a less effective bullet, or has to switch to a bullet that still gives nearly the same energy transfere on target but costs us a ton more.

You only need to look at the current waterfowl loads to get what I'm saying. Sure steel is cheap, but it's a lot less effective than the equivelent size and weight lead shot was with the same powder load behind it. The only other option is the outragously priced and terribly expensive bizmuth, tungsten, or exotic ammo loads. In almost 20 years no company out there has developed a material with the same ballistics at the same price as we had with lead shot.

With rifle rounds it will be the same thing if these federal laws take hold across the country. Either it will be over priced exotic ammo, extra long solid copper/bronze bullets requiring a much longer chamber throat, or they may switch to a new material that is not nearly as dense as lead. It's the performance per price that bothers me. Why should I have to pay more and get less from ammo just so some whacked-out left winged environmentalists can get their way all along having nothing of substance backing up their outragous claims??? I'm tired of change for no honest legitimate reason. Change for change, that all it is.

Critter's picture
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Re: Do we need preimun bullet's for deer?

Comparing a shot shell to a rifle round in these instances is not quite fare. In a shot shell you need to go up in size in steel shot to equal the same effect of lead shot. Where in a rifle round you can shoot the same grain bullet weather you are using a standard jacketed bullet or a premium one.
So as far as price is considered yes you will have to pay more for Barnes, Nosler, or any of the others manufactures that are selling the premium style of bullet for reloading but you will not give up performance by doing so. Looking at the Cableas reloading catalog you will spend around $5.00 more per box of 50 for the Barnes and a little less for the Noslers if you reload. As far as loaded ammunition the price is quite a bit different from a standard bullet to a premium one.
As far as accuracy with the ones that I reload I have found that the Barnes as just as accurate as any of the standard bullets that I use or did use and don't even consider that a factor. Then come performance of the bullet on game. On the Barnes I read that you could lower the grain of the bullet and achieve the same performance or better than a standard bullet of of the same weight. So if you were shooting a 160 grain 30 caliber you could drop that to a 150 grain bullet in the Barnes with no noticeable difference in the performance of the bullet except for an increase of velocity, and the bullets that I have recovered in game animals I can see the outcome.
Now if you do a lot of shooting at targets I can see where it could get a little bit more expensive but even if you shoot 200 rounds you are only looking at about $20.00 more than a standard bullet.
I do agree with you in that I don't want some bleeding heart liberal telling me what to shoot and where to do it but as the saying goes the only thing that doesn't change is change itself.

HOGGETTER's picture
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Re: Do we need preimun bullet's for deer?

I hope this posion dont spread!! new law for california starting Feb. 2011 its illegal to order ammo off internet and have shipped direct to you residence, so now you have to buy it at a registered dealer and if it is hand gun ammo you must give you thumb print and personal info And they only want to give you 50 rounds per month starting in 2010 Mad Censored Mad Hows that hope and change working for you now!!!

Critter's picture
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Re: Do we need preimun bullet's for deer?
HOGGETTER wrote:
I hope this posion dont spread!! new law for california starting Feb. 2011 its illegal to order ammo off internet and have shipped direct to you residence, so now you have to buy it at a registered dealer and if it is hand gun ammo you must give you thumb print and personal info And they only want to give you 50 rounds per month starting in 2010 Mad Censored Mad Hows that hope and change working for you now!!!

I heard of those fine laws coming to you folks. I also heard that there is going to be restrictions on reloading equipment also. I'm afraid that I would be looking for a way out of that state sooner than later. My uncle left there 35 years ago and I passed through there 25 years ago and I don't see any reason to go back.

HOGGETTER's picture
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Re: Do we need preimun bullet's for deer?

Yeh. i here you but someone has to stay and fight to the end. Luckily central cal is a conservitive area, mostly dairy's and ag farming. Right now we are in the middle of a water rights war between farmers and the liberals, but thats a whole other topic.

HOGGETTER's picture
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Re: Do we need preimun bullet's for deer?

I pulled this out of the Colorado 2010 regs. on page 5. You better start getting the boxing gloves out.

WesternHunter's picture
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Re: Do we need preimun bullet's for deer?
Critter wrote:
Comparing a shot shell to a rifle round in these instances is not quite fare. In a shot shell you need to go up in size in steel shot to equal the same effect of lead shot. Where in a rifle round you can shoot the same grain bullet weather you are using a standard jacketed bullet or a premium one.
So as far as price is considered yes you will have to pay more for Barnes, Nosler, or any of the others manufactures that are selling the premium style of bullet for reloading but you will not give up performance by doing so. Looking at the Cableas reloading catalog you will spend around $5.00 more per box of 50 for the Barnes and a little less for the Noslers if you reload. As far as loaded ammunition the price is quite a bit different from a standard bullet to a premium one.
As far as accuracy with the ones that I reload I have found that the Barnes as just as accurate as any of the standard bullets that I use or did use and don't even consider that a factor. Then come performance of the bullet on game. On the Barnes I read that you could lower the grain of the bullet and achieve the same performance or better than a standard bullet of of the same weight. So if you were shooting a 160 grain 30 caliber you could drop that to a 150 grain bullet in the Barnes with no noticeable difference in the performance of the bullet except for an increase of velocity, and the bullets that I have recovered in game animals I can see the outcome.
Now if you do a lot of shooting at targets I can see where it could get a little bit more expensive but even if you shoot 200 rounds you are only looking at about $20.00 more than a standard bullet.
I do agree with you in that I don't want some bleeding heart liberal telling me what to shoot and where to do it but as the saying goes the only thing that doesn't change is change itself.

You are correct in what you are saying Critter, but I think you may have misunderstood what I was getting at. I'm not worried about having the choice of Nosler Partitions or A-Frames over something like a Cor-Lokt, etc. Maybe I'me getting off subject here. But, with regards to the issue that HOGGETTER is bring up. If the ban on leaded ammo becomes law across the USA for rifle rounds then that means either solid copper/bronze meaning you'll need a much longer bullet for the same weight as lead or they will introduce some other material as a substitute that's no where near as dense as lead nor will offer the same energy transfere on target. I was using the waterfowl load comparison as proof of what has happened over the last 20 years and how performance is still not what it was with lead and in 20 years nothing yet is out there that mimics the ballistics of lead for the same price. The leftists and the government wants us to change, but always makes us take it in the rear when the that change they want occurs.

WesternHunter's picture
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Re: Do we need preimun bullet's for deer?
HOGGETTER wrote:
I hope this posion dont spread!! new law for california starting Feb. 2011 its illegal to order ammo off internet and have shipped direct to you residence, so now you have to buy it at a registered dealer and if it is hand gun ammo you must give you thumb print and personal info And they only want to give you 50 rounds per month starting in 2010 Mad Censored Mad Hows that hope and change working for you now!!!

Yup, that's the type of stuff I'm talking about. sad

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