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expatriate's picture
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The Debt Spiral

This is really starting to make my head hurt: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/first100days/2009/02/10/geithner-unveil-...

Our current economic disaster was triggered by excessive debt by people who borrowed more than they should have -- mainly subprime loans.

So now Obama wants to solve the crisis by making billions of dollars in bailouts to banks contingent on those banks taking steps to encourage people to borrow more money.

So we're asking people to borrow money so we can pay off a crisis caused by borrowing money. And the government is borrowing money so that people can borrow money to pay off the borrowed money.

This isn't economics...it's a giant Ponzi scheme.

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Location: Canada
Joined: 12/26/2006
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The Debt Spiral

And the banks that were bailed out are not lending freely anyways, but I am sure they are thankful for all of the tax dollars given to them.

Meanwhile they push forward for more money and continue to bail out companies that were obviously mismanaged.........employees continue to get layed off even by those getting bailed out. Small businesses and their employees, who cumulatively add up to large numbers, just crater and do not qualify. Why is the N.A. auto sector more deserving of billions of dollars than the many smaller businesses caught up in this mess?

The whole thing is a farce and personally I wish they had just let the chips fall where they may, the financial institutions are nothing but a bunch of bandits anyways. Yes it might have been a big mess for a while, but eventually other business heads would come along with a plan and fill the voids.

Everyone got themselves into this mess....................it all goes back to the "me, me, me" and no fault mentality. For the most part people have been living way beyond their means for decades and are mortgaged, loaned and have credit card debt right up to the eyeballs.....they have been barely treading water for a long time. Any hick-up in the bi-weekly direct deposit leaves them instantly destitute.

I have sympathy for the people that are actually victims of the situation, but for the most part you made your bed, now lay in it.

Location: Butte, MT
Joined: 01/02/2006
Posts: 234
The Debt Spiral

I wish the Obama Administration would share access to the money tree planted in the rose garden. Where the #### are we getting all this $ to throw around at every problem? Our federal deficit is officially out of control. Makes me concerned for my daughters.

SoCoKHntr's picture
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Location: Pueblo Colorado
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The Debt Spiral
Sage of the Sage wrote:
I wish the Obama Administration would share access to the money tree planted in the rose garden. Where the #### are we getting all this $ to throw around at every problem? Our federal deficit is officially out of control. Makes me concerned for my daughters.

Sage, did you ask this question of Bush or have that attitude regarding the money spent on Iraq. The latest estimates I've found are 12 Billion per month in 08 to fund the Iraq war. This for a war in my and many others view didn't need to happen. Would you care to pull up any totals of what Iraq has cost us since 02? Bullets, bombs, missiles, food, fuel, and a million other related costs in fighting a guerrilla insurgency tally up to quite an astronomical cost. But, it seems many in your camp are ok with money, our money, your daughters money for they will be helping to pay that debt off, to be used down that drain.

But, you are opposed to money being spent in an attempt to pull us out of the quagmire bush tax cuts, the war, outsourcing of American jobs, and deregulation of the last eight years have bottomed us out in. Remember, you guys had FULL AND TOTAL control for the majority of those years. Tax cuts especially to the wealthy were freely and copiously given. Tax cuts from your party and deregulation preceded us in where we find ourselves today.

Were you asking about the money tree in the Rose Garden then?

Location: Butte, MT
Joined: 01/02/2006
Posts: 234
The Debt Spiral

SoCo, I was concerned about the debt we were amassing then too. I was never in favor of us invading Iraq, but after we did, I believe we started something we're now obligated to finish. As far as where was I asking about the $ tree then? Well... I just thought of it this morning.

By the way, I'm not a Republican and I was not in favor of the 1st "bailout' proposed by Bush.

Anyway, back to the subject, I realize that 74% (or something like that) think Obama is the niftiest thing since sliced bread, and you seem to be one of those (which is fine), but do you REALLY think that this much government involvment in a decidedly free market economy, and going into more debt to the tune of almost $2trillion more is really going to be a good thing in a long-term, far-reaching, all-encompassing sense? I'm no economist by the longest stretch of the imagination, but I doubt it. This stuff just makes me nervous. I think companies, banks included, should stand or fall based on their own merits. I think they will anyway in the long run and all this "propping up" the federal government is doing will only result in a possibly bigger crash later on... the only difference will be that we'll be more in debt as a nation. So, yes, I'm concerned for my daughters' future, but maybe it's just human nature to do that. Sorry I don't share your optimism, but I'll say it again, I hope you're right and I'm wrong.

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Location: Canada
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The Debt Spiral

Helping bail GM was sure a good move for both of our countries wasn't it?! Just saw a news cast that they are cutting 10,000 jobs.......oh but they are cutting salaries for the brass. Isn't that good of them...........

What a joke.

SoCoKHntr's picture
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The Debt Spiral
Sage of the Sage wrote:
Anyway, back to the subject, I realize that 74% (or something like that) think Obama is the niftiest thing since sliced bread, and you seem to be one of those (which is fine), but do you REALLY think that this much government involvment in a decidedly free market economy, and going into more debt to the tune of almost $2trillion more is really going to be a good thing in a long-term, far-reaching, all-encompassing sense? I'm no economist by the longest stretch of the imagination, but I doubt it. This stuff just makes me nervous. I think companies, banks included, should stand or fall based on their own merits. I think they will anyway in the long run and all this "propping up" the federal government is doing will only result in a possibly bigger crash later on... the only difference will be that we'll be more in debt as a nation. So, yes, I'm concerned for my daughters' future, but maybe it's just human nature to do that. Sorry I don't share your optimism, but I'll say it again, I hope you're right and I'm wrong.

You really think just letting the banks and other companies collapse is the way to go? Maybe you are right, but are you and me and America ready for the possible cataclysmic consequences in letting that happen? It's easier to say it then to just let it happen. Tell me what will it mean if we just let banks that our holding our money collapse? Can you tell me how exactly that will affect me and you?

Am, I supposed to have confidence in choosing that option are your daughters?

2.6 million jobs lost in the last year and what is the solution from the right to deal with that. More tax cuts like the ones bush enacted during his first term and into his second which has brought us here. They obviously didn't work then, why should we believe they will work now?

What is wrong with with using this stimulas money in reinvesting in our country in our infrastructure how is this not better then shooting it off in a foreign country where once the bullets and bombs are dust in the wind like dust in the wind that money is gone.

I do believe we as a Country are in a very precarious position due to unregulated free trade, outsourcing of jobs for cheap labor, stagnating wages for middle class Americans with rising cost of living/health care, diminishing educational opportunities for our children, our future. Trickle down economics hasn't worked and just like one extreme communism isn't the answer. The other extreme unrestrained and unregulated free trade and tax cuts for the upper percent aren't the answer either.

But, you have some on here blaming the whole mess on the sub prime mortgage affair and approving mortgages for minorities.

Location: Butte, MT
Joined: 01/02/2006
Posts: 234
The Debt Spiral
SoCoKHntr wrote:
[

You really think just letting the banks and other companies collapse is the way to go? Maybe you are right, but are you and me and America ready for the possible cataclysmic consequences in letting that happen? It's easier to say it then to just let it happen. Tell me what will it mean if we just let banks that our holding our money collapse? Can you tell me how exactly that will affect me and you?

Look, the truth is, I'm probably not informed enough on this topic to really be discussing it. So, I'm gonna let it go... after this. As far the questions you posed, I have a fairly Darwinian outlook when it comes to business, if it's not doing enough business to stay afloat it ought to sink. Someone else will fill the void with a better product or whatever. As far as the "cataclysmic consequences" of the banks collapsing go, I don't know if I or anybody is ready for that or if I or anybody really even knows what they would be. In a broadstroke, I just figure economies fluctuate, they ebb and flow. Sometimes they spike, sometime they plunge. I hate to say it, but a plunge is probably inevitable, maybe not now, but sometime. Look at the great depression in relation to the "roaring '20s", we came back from that. Look at the "roaring '20's" in relation to today. Drastic difference there too. And, yes, I agree that if the great depression could have been avoided it should have been. So, in the end, I don't know. I just have this theory that the more we try to prop up an already teetering colosus, the bigger the fall will be in the end. Like I said, I sincerely hope you're right and I'm wrong. Time will tell, I reckon. Sage out.

cowgal's picture
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The Debt Spiral

SoCo common sense tells you if you can't afford something, you shouldn't buy it. Our country is already in debt and piling on trillions more is not going to fix it.

I was against the bailout and I'm against the stimulus. I don't believe either will work. Bad companies and businesses should not be rescued and rewarded, they should go under. Like Makwa stated the small businesses do not get the government handouts, they either gotta make it or they disappear. That is how capitalism has always worked. Bad business practices should not be rewarded. Yes, the big banks should have gone bankrupt.

All this money will not save jobs. Look at what GM did today? How is that any different than letting them bite the dust on their own? Now we've thrown billions at the problems and people will STILL LOSE THEIR JOBS!

I don't have a problem with investing in infrastructure across the country IF we have the money! The stimulus bill would be a lot more palatable if it had indeed focused strictly on infrastructure, but it didn't, Its full of pork and pet projects for a lot of nonsense. And no matter how much Obama thumps his chest and proclaims there are "no earmarks" that's one big fat lie.

expatriate's picture
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The Debt Spiral

Just curious, SoCo -- how long is the Bush Derangement Syndrome going to continue? At some point I'd like to hear some analysis from you without a Bush tirade.

If we had let Darwinism run its course, it would've hurt. Poorly-run companies and banks would fail. But you know what? When they failed they'd be bought up by successful companies. People are saying we couldn't afford to do that, but look at what we're doing -- going into debt by trillions of dollars to prop up failure.

Yes, if those companies would have gone under, it would have cost trillions. But we've let our fear of that lead us to borrow trillions of dollars -- and that's going to have to be repaid out of our economy, too.

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The Debt Spiral

Hi Cowgal.......I just finished watching the report on the stock market. Seems the initial reaction to the package is not a good one.

Interesting times.......not good.......just interesting.

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