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Location: Pennsylvania
Joined: 10/28/2003
Posts: 1647
Crossbows in Pa, part 2!

OK......I will tell you why I think its a good idea.
Hunting is a passtime that is going away in this country. I believe that the introduction to hunting......in the bow season would be the most effective. The weather is comfortable and its quite! Not like gun season. This is an opertunity to recrute people into the sport that normally would not have been hunters. A lot of people go out hunting in the gun season....freeze thier butt's off and never want to go again. They will have a lot more confidence in thier equipment and they know it will be effective! Therefore they will be out in the woods enjoying the season that the rest of us know and love. I think every opertunity to get more people involved is better for the future of hunting. There are 1.5 million deer in Pa. There is enough to go around.
In my opinion there are way too many deer! After the herd is thinned (the whole point of the new regs) There will still be deer. You may need to hunt harder. The environment will be greatly improved. There will be more available food sources and habitat for every thing else that will then have a chance to live and eat and find shelter. The deer in Pa have destroyed thier environment.
I have hunted in 7 counties on the eastern side of the state.....its the same everywhere! You can stand in the forest and you can't see 30 yards into the canopy! Squat down and look and you can see 150 to 200 yards through the woods because of the overbrowsing, even now in the summertime!

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Joined: 09/16/2004
Posts: 13
Crossbows in Pa, part 2!

ok, why would you ever want more hunters in archery?
do you want to be scared silly to walk through the woods like in rifle season!
a TRUE bowhunter would never want crossbows introduced.
woods and forests are disapearing as is. i think its dumb for those people that cant shoot a bow that they should get an exception, with a weapon jsut like a rifle.

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Posts: 13
Crossbows in Pa, part 2!

o yes trouthunter is right in all the aspects of his argument!!!!
Trouthunter you are awsome!
preserve the Bowhunting Tradition!!!!!

bitmasher's picture
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Location: Colorado
Joined: 02/27/2002
Posts: 2973
Crossbows in Pa, part 2!

I agree with hunter777, crossbows should be allowed in archery season. If the big hang up is over the scope, I'm sure many crossbow hunters would give up the scope (use open sights) to gain access to the archery season.

With fiber optic sights, dual-cam compound bows, and 80% left-offs becoming common, its hard to argue that modern bows are even vaguely "traditional".

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Joined: 09/16/2004
Posts: 13
Crossbows in Pa, part 2!

NOT TRADITIONAL?????????? Evil!
What are you talking about?
You sound like you don't have that much experience bowhunting (REAL BOWHUNTING.) I dont know where you get that everyone shoots 80% let-off bows. I SHOOT A FREAKING RECURVE, AND ILL BE DAMNED IF THAT AIN'T TRADITION! Don't get it in your head that every bow has a freakin' 80% let-off cuz thats bull. You still have to hold it back even if you have 80% let-off. What do you have to hold BACK? oh yea i forgot you jsut have to pull a trigger my BAD! and the thing about open sites its still not as hard as shootin' a bow with a peep and fiber optics. And doesnt even compare to the prac. that it takes to shoot instinctivley With a recurve!!!! so you go to your gun range site in your CROSSGUN and go ahead and cheat all of us that prac. everyday to perfect OUR TRADITION!

WHO THE HELL CHEATS WITH A CROSSGUN!!!!!!!!!!!!! Evil!

Quicksilver's picture
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Location: Colorado
Joined: 05/03/2003
Posts: 239
Crossbows in Pa, part 2!

cutoncontact09, who are you to claim that a crossbow isn't traditional or a recurve is more traditional than say, a compound, or other methods of hunting, via, muzzle load or rifle?

Recurves over the past few years, is nothing like it's original predecessor, the Longbow or the Native American bow's of the past. Recurves have warped, twisted, and have been tamed with all the modern comforts found in crossbows and compounds. Recurve limbs are mass produced using fiber glass or machined wood and cased with modern epoxy along with other chemically advance products to stengthen and lengthen the life span of the bow.

Much like compounds, specially designed rests, and sights are littering the market for recurve hunters. Professional sights ranging from the simple brass ball & pin to the more advanced machined milled Sure Loc X-Treme has made, what you call "Traditional" into a perfectly tuned science...

Now, lets not forget, Crossbows as we know it, have been around since the sixth century BC in China. This item eventually arrived and was placed in wide spread use in Europe sometime during the first millennium. It was until the thirteenth century that the crossbow was replaced by the improved longbow. The Grandfather of your so called "Traditional Recurve"....

cutoncontact09 wrote:
You still have to hold it back even if you have 80% let-off. What do you have to hold BACK? oh yea i forgot you jsut have to pull a trigger my BAD!

Now you state, that a person with an %80 let off still has to hold the weight tell release, but, what seperates the Bow hunter for the Crossbow hunter, is the ability of a compound, recurve, or longbow to fire 2-3 arrows for every one shot taken with a crossbow....

Think about it? Could we actually say, that a crossbow with all it's modern technology maybe inferior to a compound, recurve, and longbow based off the rate of fire?

cutoncontact09 wrote:
And doesnt even compare to the prac. that it takes to shoot instinctivley With a recurve!!!! so you go to your gun range site in your CROSSGUN and go ahead and cheat all of us that prac. everyday to perfect OUR TRADITION!

It's safe to assume, based on fire rate alone, that for every three shots a with recurve bow, a crossbow hunter will only have one shot, therefore, a crossbow hunter will have to practice 2-3 times as much as bow hunter, and be much more precise with shot placement. Which would also explain the need for increased technolgy, ie, open sights, scopes, improved cocking devices, etc, to increase precision and fire rate due to the crossbows inferior "One shot" nature...

So, cutoncontact09, here something to slap on the end of your traditional sport.... Holographic Bow Sight , "Based on the same holographic technology used for target acquisition on bomber fighters."

cutoncontact09, "WHO THE HELL CHEATS WITH A CROSSGUN" eye roll

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Location: Pennsylvania
Joined: 06/03/2004
Posts: 52
Crossbows in Pa, part 2!

Bitsmasher, I respect your opinion but you do not hunt with a bow. The hang up is not a scope. It is the unfair advantage of the mechanism used to fire the weapon. It is loaded well before the anticipated shot, much faster than even the fastest compound bows and fired by pulling a trigger. It is a blatant attempt by the game commission to make more money by lisence sales. It has nothing to do with herd control. There are many more effective management tools that have not been explored.

Quicksilver, your arguments are a joke. Its obvious youve never hunted with archery equipment or shot a croosbow for that matter. Its funny how you have never posted one time in the last year in the archery forum when you have such opinionated views about archery. 2-3 shots per one with a crossbow ....Ha, what a joke.

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Crossbows in Pa, part 2!
trouthunter wrote:
Bitsmasher, I respect your opinion but you do not hunt with a bow.

So that makes my opinion less important? We are talking public lands hunting, I'm a citizen, I get a say in how my game is managed and by whom on public land. I see no problem with crossbows in archery season.

trouthunter wrote:
The hang up is not a scope.

It is for some so I was just putting that out that the scope issue is moot.

trouthunter wrote:
It is the unfair advantage of the mechanism used to fire the weapon. It is loaded well before the anticipated shot, much faster than even the fastest compound bows and fired by pulling a trigger.

Unfair to who? Certainly not unfair to the deer... so I'll just ignore that. Maybe you mean unfair to you? Nobody said you couldn't use a crossbow too, so how is it unfair to you? You want to use a bow, go ahead, doesn't mean crossbow hunters have to. Why should other hunters conform to your view of fair?

trouthunter wrote:
It is a blatant attempt by the game commission to make more money by lisence sales. It has nothing to do with herd control. There are many more effective management tools that have not been explored.

Ha, ha.... So if they let the crossbow hunters hunt for free (no extra $$$$) would you be happy? Then the monetary incentive would be removed and the game commission wouldn't get any more dough....

The money arguement is a diversion from the main issue that recurve/compound hunters simply don't want more hunters in "their" cut of the season, unless the new hunters meet their definition of fair. Again, we are talking about a public resource, last I checked that was managed by a majority opinion. If the majority of hunters think crossbows are sufficient archery tackle, so be it.

BTW, if you want to rally undecided hunters (of any type) to your cause, I'd refrain from implying rifle and crossbow hunters are, in general, inept. Yeah, I've read your other posts. You didn't say this in so many words, but it is the way I and presumably others read it.

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Location: Pennsylvania
Joined: 06/03/2004
Posts: 52
Crossbows in Pa, part 2!

Pick up a bow and then I'll consider your opinion. Every bow hunting organization across the country including United Bowhunters of Pennsylvania are completely against the use of crossbows and have fought to keep them out of the archery seasons. UBOP lost the battle as did Maryland Bowhunters. $$$ is the only reason they are being permitted. Due to lobbinyg by manufacturers and kickbacks from manufacturers to the state agencies they are now being permitted. Obviously you don't know the ALL the issues involved with this topic. Since crossbows where only allowed during the rifle season people were not buying them. Do you see how this will improve sales for manufacturers and revenue for the Game Commission?

Your opinion is not important because 1. You don't know any facts on the issue. 2. You don't bow hunt, or understand how it will affect me and other bow hunters. 3. You don't Know that this applies to all Land. 4. You don't live in PA.

This is UNFAIR to me and every other hard working bowhunter in PA. If I wanted to use a crossbow I would use it in gun season when it should be used.

You have to purchase a Crossbow permit to use a crossbow in the ARCHERY season to hunt with one. You do not need A permit if you are using a Crossbow during the gun season. These rules apply to the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania. It is free to use a crossbow if one would like. Part of the states issued statement claimed that "crossbows would help reduce the overpopulation of whitetails on private land." If private landowners will not allow bowhunters to hunt their property they surely would not allow crossbow hunters or any hunters for that matter. The state recieved nearly 12,000 letters against the use of crossbows during archery season, and 0 for the use. It was all lobbying by manufacturers..

I own three rifles, one inline muzzeloader, one shotgun and one bow. I hunt with everyone of my weapons and love the tactics implemented with each one. I have nothing against rifles.

Yeah, Iv'e read your other posts as well.

Quicksilver's picture
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Location: Colorado
Joined: 05/03/2003
Posts: 239
Crossbows in Pa, part 2!

Trouthunter, it's really a very simple problem to solve... If you feel that crossbows will taint the bow season and is unfair because you're being out matched by inferior technology. Then Archery Season, as you know it, and across the United States should be cut in half. Your 3-4 week bow season during the prime rut should be cut down to 1.5 - 2 weeks and the crossbow hunters can either have the first or second half..

Fair enough?

Crossbows Approved

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Location: Colorado
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Posts: 239
Crossbows in Pa, part 2!

Trouthunter, I keep hearing this argument that crossbows are some how "Faster than the most powerful compound" or "more powerful than a shotgun", and I'm starting to wonder where you get your information from buddy?

trouthunter wrote:
It is loaded well before the anticipated shot, much faster than even the fastest compound bows and fired by pulling a trigger.
trouthunter wrote:
...A weapon thats better than a shotgun...

Now some bowhunters, like trouthunter, would like to think that their above all other forms of hunting, ie crossbows. These "Elites" prefer to have their hunting season all to themselves, but when a state introduces another primative method of hunting, like crossbows, these Elite hunters will stop at no cost, and will preach every bogus argument against crossbows, just to keep them out!

So lets just go ahead and kill this argument about crossbows being more powerful than Compounds or Long Bows, because it's clearly obvious that trouthunter doesn't have a clue as to what he's talking about...

In my previous post I gave a link to the "Pennsylvania Game Commission Press Release" which explain some of the basic background for the new crossbow regulation and some of the requirements.

Pennsylvania Game Commission states, "The new regulation also requires crossbows used for deer hunting to have a draw weight of not less than 125 pounds nor more than 200 pounds."

Horton makes the Hunter XS, which is one of their top compound crossbows, and max weight is 200 lbs. The Horton Hunter XS at 200 lbs will throw a bolt, or a sawed off arrow as Trouthunter likes to put it, at 320 fps... Ummmm?

trouthunter wrote:
Now every gun hunter who is LAZY will be on the already crowded game lands weilding a gun that shoots a sawed-off arrow

Alright, Bowtech Extreme VFT, might I add is one kick ass bow, at 30" draw length with a max weight of 70 lbs, will throw an arrow at an outstanding 333 fps... Ummmm?

Recap:
Horton Hunter XS crossbow: 200 lbs = 320 fps
Bowtech Extreme VFT: 70 lbs = 333 fps

The Bowtech Extreme VFT compound bow will throw a 350 grain arrow 13 feet per second faster than the top Horton Hunter XS crossbow...

So, trouthunter, I stand by what I say, "Crossbows are inferior to Compounds, Recurves, and Longbows, based not only on fire rate, but also fps..."

But really, what do I know, my arguments are just jokes?

trouthunter wrote:
Quicksilver, your arguments are a joke.

Now, I guess there is just one more question to ask, "Trouthunter, Do you look as stupid as you sound?"

trouthunter wrote:
Do you look as stupid as you sound?

Source:
Bowtech Extreme VFT
Horton Hunter XS crossbow

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